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Fed up with Training or Single Player Missions?

69 posts in this topic

For those of you who don't like going after missile boats with rockets in order to complete an arbitrary training mission, this thread is what you've been looking for!

The purpose of this thread is to highlight shortcomings of training missions and single player missions, as those of us who beta test don't have time to get to them all.

The rules for posting in this thread are simple:

  • Be constructive.
  • If possible, explain why what you are trying to do makes no sense (e.g. why would you go after a missile boat with rockets on a training mission when Maverick would be your weapon of choice, and would also train you in the same way).
  • Provide a recommendation. Simplest fix is an updated loadout. Second simplest fix is changing the type of target (as long as it is mobile or air). Third simplest fix is adding aircraft/targets to flights/groups.
  • If your recommendation involves changing victory conditions, make sure that you list the sequence of the victory condition you would like removed (e.g. the third condition down, which is the BMP-3 group must be killed). Identifying a condition without sequence makes things very difficult to track down.
  • Offer multiple alternatives, if possible. There are likely more ways to skin these cats.

If the mission is single player and you don't know how to fix it, but it is just impossible to finish, please say so and why. We'll try to figure something out. Keep in mind that most of these missions were designed for ADF, which had a different stealth model for the F-22 than TAW.

Please try to avoid the following recommendations:
  • Moving aircraft/mobile targets or changing their waypoints (this is much harder than you might think with a text editor).
  • Removing aircraft flights/mobile target groups entirely (this involves resequencing assets, groups, and missions across two different datafiles. Doable, but very tedious and should be a near-last resort). Note that adding or removing individual aircraft or mobile targets from flights or groups is much easier, and this is fine.

I look forward to your contributions.

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Isn't the whole point of training to put you into worse scenarios than you'll ever encounter on a real mission?

That 'strafe the ships with rockets' mission is a good example. When I first got ADF, that mission was nigh on impossible. A year later, and rerunning with TAW, I found it quite easy since I'd learnt a few things.

Sure, you could replace the rockets with Mavs to make it easier to 'pass', but if you find yourself out of mavs on a real mission, then what are you going to do?

...or is this some sort of government mandated 'No pilot left behind' program? ;)

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Well if that was the point mikew, then what you need to practice is ditching a F-22 in the swamp with no fuel, no engines (Naturally) and no runway within 50+ nautical miles.

Yes, I have done that, tricky landing slapping down the Raptor between some mountains, but didn't give me the loss of points as an ejection or death would have.

But yes, that is the worst case, and the worst cases you improvize, it should be more about letting them get the weapon understanding under ideal conditions, such as the rocket gunsight and if it is set too high or too low.

Gunning down Shilkas with a cannon comes later :P and again is an improvized technique.

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Point taken, Mike. Generally training begins simple and becomes more complex to the point where things are harder than you are likely to experience IRL. Also in a real training scenario, we would be expected to utilize the proper weapons based on availability, with the caveat to the "difficult" training missions being "this is not an optimal solution to the problem". However, one must first have a foundation as to the right solution before being forced into the proverbial gunfight with a proverbial knife.

Brings up a point that a mixed loadout might be just the thing for this training mission. Harpoon is the ideal standoff weapon for larger ships (bang for the buck) as well as ships with longer reach. Maverick is much better for ships or boats with a defensive capability closer to that of a MANPAD (including surfaced submarines, though that exceeds TAW scope), and strafing runs/rockets are best for the unarmed boat, though for larger ships you would only do this to attack the stuff on deck.

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Hawkx was putting out offers to train a while ago, but he stopped posting about it due to lack of interest. You might hit him up, though.

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Isn't the whole point of training to put you into worse scenarios than you'll ever encounter on a real mission?

That 'strafe the ships with rockets' mission is a good example. When I first got ADF, that mission was nigh on impossible. A year later, and rerunning with TAW, I found it quite easy since I'd learnt a few things.

Sure, you could replace the rockets with Mavs to make it easier to 'pass', but if you find yourself out of mavs on a real mission, then what are you going to do?

...or is this some sort of government mandated 'No pilot left behind' program? ;)

Sorry Mike can't agree. The training missions are to get experience on delivering a particular weapon. The 'strafe the ships with rockets' is a good example. This training mission should be re-named "How to avoid cannon rounds at close proximity". Once you've master that maneuver, then maybe re-enforce your rocket delivery skill which have been acquired elsewhere. Rockets have their place, but IMHO, would not be the preferred choice of weapon in such a situation.

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Please try to avoid the following recommendations:

  • Moving aircraft/mobile targets or changing their waypoints (this is much harder than you might think with a text editor).
  • Removing aircraft flights/mobile target groups entirely (this involves resequencing assets, groups, and missions across two different datafiles. Doable, but very tedious and should be a near-last resort). Note that adding or removing individual aircraft or mobile targets from flights or groups is much easier, and this is fine.

I look forward to your contributions.

Nice post HF. But the bit above worries me. As a novice beta tester, who in no way understands anything about datafiles, code, what is doable or tedious, etc, many of my suggestions fall within these categories without me realising it. So do I say nothing, knowing there is a risk it cannot be achieved, or do I put up and accept the consequence. Bit like when I raised the issue of "difficulty in seeing text colours in the Situation MFD with NVG turned on". I now understand it impossible to change and that's fine but I don't think I should be discouraged from raising it because of the unknown (to me) difficulty. Beta testers need to have the freedom to make any suggestions. However expressed in the guidelines you've documented earlier in the post. My 2 c worth.

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When in doubt, post (I can always refuse to make a change), but the entries were guidelines for what are feasible changes to recommend.

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When in doubt, post (I can always refuse to make a change), but the entries were guidelines for what are feasible changes to recommend.

:thumbsup:

Right here's my first:

Please integrate TAW2.0 with SuperEF2000 and Typhoon: Operation Icebreaker. :sofa1:

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:thumbsup:

Right here's my first:

Please integrate TAW2.0 with SuperEF2000 and Typhoon: Operation Icebreaker. :sofa1:

Start holding your breath...now! :P

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I hope I'm replying correctly, since this is about offline training versus multiplayer. As I continue working my way through re-familiarization going through the single mission training, I've made it to the Element Leadership "Pickle" mission. As with the anti-ship/amphibious assault training scenario, I find this particular training mission to over the top. Managing EMCON to 1 and skirting SAM sites gets you only so far. As you near the primary target (residential mission for JDAM), a SAM battery opens up on you and no amount of evasive maneuvering (beaming, etc.) seems effective to preclude getting hit.

I'm sure that if I spend enough time re-running it, I'll eventually stumble onto a successful mission. Still, part of the directive is to utilize the assets in your flight to suppress SAMs so that the primary can be hit, allowing you to egress. This does not seem to work very well as my guys "run in", but do not effectively suppress the ground threats. I may even get close enough for a "shoot" cue for JDAM release, but it seems almost a foregone conclusion that I'll be whacked by the time it gets there.

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I hope I'm replying correctly, since this is about offline training versus multiplayer. As I continue working my way through re-familiarization going through the single mission training, I've made it to the Element Leadership "Pickle" mission. As with the anti-ship/amphibious assault training scenario, I find this particular training mission to over the top. Managing EMCON to 1 and skirting SAM sites gets you only so far. As you near the primary target (residential mission for JDAM), a SAM battery opens up on you and no amount of evasive maneuvering (beaming, etc.) seems effective to preclude getting hit.

I'm sure that if I spend enough time re-running it, I'll eventually stumble onto a successful mission. Still, part of the directive is to utilize the assets in your flight to suppress SAMs so that the primary can be hit, allowing you to egress. This does not seem to work very well as my guys "run in", but do not effectively suppress the ground threats. I may even get close enough for a "shoot" cue for JDAM release, but it seems almost a foregone conclusion that I'll be whacked by the time it gets there.

I think you need to re-read this. It applies here to. And take advantage of the offers in this thread.

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I think you need to re-read this. It applies here to.

I'm not sure what you mean other than pointing out that each training scenario does not require successful completion to progress through the others. Already know that, but it's a personal goal and I learn things even if not being initially successful. Perseverance usually leads to success. Altering tactics from those in the book often provide better results.

And take advantage of the offers in this thread.

Mentoring is a fine thing, but it requires availability of the two parties. If and when I am able to progress to the point where I feel I'm ready to try MP, I will no doubt be eager to be mentored. However, I'm a long way from that at this point and my changing work schedule makes it difficult to arrange an online session.

My post was an observation of what I think is problematic with one of the single mission training scenarios. As I mentioned in the opening, I wasn't sure if it was within Home Fries' intended purpose of the thread, but I took a chance anyway.

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I'm not sure what you mean other than pointing out that each training scenario does not require successful completion to progress through the others. Already know that, but it's a personal goal and I learn things even if not being initially successful. Perseverance usually leads to success. Altering tactics from those in the book often provide better results.

Mentoring is a fine thing, but it requires availability of the two parties. If and when I am able to progress to the point where I feel I'm ready to try MP, I will no doubt be eager to be mentored. However, I'm a long way from that at this point and my changing work schedule makes it difficult to arrange an online session.

My post was an observation of what I think is problematic with one of the single mission training scenarios. As I mentioned in the opening, I wasn't sure if it was within Home Fries' intended purpose of the thread, but I took a chance anyway.

Spectre, your comments are quite germane to this thread. You brought up a particular training mission that goes "above and beyond" training you for a particular skillset. Do you have any particular recommendations on how specifically to make the mission better train in its intended task (i.e. not be so hard in unrelated aspects)?

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I hope I'm replying correctly, since this is about offline training versus multiplayer. As I continue working my way through re-familiarization going through the single mission training, I've made it to the Element Leadership "Pickle" mission. As with the anti-ship/amphibious assault training scenario, I find this particular training mission to over the top. Managing EMCON to 1 and skirting SAM sites gets you only so far. As you near the primary target (residential mission for JDAM), a SAM battery opens up on you and no amount of evasive maneuvering (beaming, etc.) seems effective to preclude getting hit.

I'm sure that if I spend enough time re-running it, I'll eventually stumble onto a successful mission. Still, part of the directive is to utilize the assets in your flight to suppress SAMs so that the primary can be hit, allowing you to egress. This does not seem to work very well as my guys "run in", but do not effectively suppress the ground threats. I may even get close enough for a "shoot" cue for JDAM release, but it seems almost a foregone conclusion that I'll be whacked by the time it gets there.

If I may give my 2 cents worth.. Just a short info on how I (just now succesfully on the second try) completed the mission.

First, to start off, I make a generously wide arc to the right, just as the first SAM site is already picking me up. This lets me avoid the first few sites easily. Even though I enter the threat circle a bit, they don't fire upon me.

I gain altitude to 15k - 20k. I am now heading for the strike waypoint. I switch to Emcon 5 manually, since I know I have external weapons. Because of that, I show up on enemy radars even though I one would think the 'stealthier' Emcon 1 to be better. In this case: it doesn't help me at all - It makes everything worse, since it's not trying to jam the incoming missiles tracking systems, in order to stay 'stealthy'. But I'm not stealthy anyways due to my externals. So no point in Emcon 1.

I have enough time to focus on taking out ground threats, as there are no enemy bandits that are a threat. (helicopters can't do anything to you) Just the same, the JDAM target can wait, the building isn't going anywhere. While in Emcon5, I can successfully dodge any missiles incoming.

I try to target the ZSU_23's (= shilka) first as their cannons are stopping me from flying in low to take out the SAM-sites with cannon myself.

Once I have a few shilkas targeted manually and confirmed they are shilkas by the Lantirn view, I order my wingmen to engage my target.

After which, I break, and wait for them to fire their missiles. Then I go ahead an use 'T' to create a shoot list, and use 'C' so cycle through the list, checking the lantirn for any shilkas that have not yet been targeted. I also toggle 'J' to declutter the view, to clearly identify which target has an X through them and which doesn't.

I fire upon remaining shilkas (I only have 5 A2G missiles in total) which still leaves some targets left.

I order my wingmen to engage all hostiles, while I go after any remaining target SAMs that are now without protection from shilkas.

Finally, I gain altitude, catch some distance to make a last pass for the JDAM target. (The bomb needs quite some airtime to adjust trajectory etc.) I fire one first, and keep the second as a backup in case my flight path wasn't good enough for the JDAM to find it's target.

If needed I try a second pass at the JDAM target.

Mission Goals Completed.

You don't need to adapt my method 1:1. But the Emcon 5 tip might help. Also J to declutter, to check which targets are already being taken out. And using lantirn to identify which targets you want to use missiles on, and which you don't might also prove helpful.

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I had a hell of a job completing this one.

76542396.png

Got down on runway in the end on fire, with bullets and missles still coming in!.

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I forgot to add that i don't think you should make the training missions easier, if they were easy then that's not going to help improve your skills is it!?

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Oh and that ship mission where you only have rockets to hit them with....well ok its hard!, but its preparing you for that situation should it ever arise for whatever reason?, that's the way i look at it, so even if you can't complete it your still learning to deal with a situation like that better!. :popcornsmilie:

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I've progressed beyond the aforementioned mission. I adapted some different tactics and managed to overcome the enemy. In fairness, some of the training missions are ridiculously simple. Some, not so much. For instance, the one where you slip behind the Lear Jet with fighter escort...stay in EMCON 1 and fall in trail, you can't miss. It seems that some of the training missions are a bear if you follow the tactics covered in the briefing. However, if you apply your own tactics, they are more easily defeated.

Overall, I think DiD did a wonderful job with TAW/F-22ADF, particularly if you consider we've had an additional 14 years to figure out what the F-22's capabilities are. It is supremely satisfying to minimize EMCON and fall behind an aggressor, then stalk them to a position of advantage culminating in a quick launch to take them out. The more re-familiar I become with this sim, the more amazed I am with the work DiD did in its creation.

It might have been a more progressive training scenario if DiD had graduated the single mission training from easy to hard for each application, but it is what it is. That being the case, the pilot should persevere on each level until they are able to successfully complete each task even if it means they have to adapt their own tactics to make it happen. In retrospect I think the training missions are, on balance, good in their present form. I was getting hammered when trying to fly the preset mission waypoints on the way to the JDAM building strike, so I went to EMCON manual 1, dropped down low and flew NOE in a pipeline ravine to the right of the mission's planned route until closer to the target area. I popped up, acquired the SAM/AAA sites and handed them off to my wingman for suppression, then took out the primary target, survived and successfully completed the mission. I may get waxed a few times, but eventually I make it through if I keep at it.

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I had a hell of a job completing this one.

76542396.png

Got down on runway in the end on fire, with bullets and missles still coming in!.

My hat is off to you. The counter-measures mission is as tough as they come. I immediately ask the tower for direct approach clearance, then go to the bag-o-tricks. I've tried the all the techniques covered in the briefing and still get whacked every time. If they weren't using guns, it would be easier, but it's always the bullets that get me.

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The truth is, you want to face the brunt of TAW...

Well the training missions isn't the best way to "battle harden" in my opinion.

It is the campaigns, things that seems simple can quickly turn into a friggin nightmare.

Like the "milk run" description I gave Home Fries a while ago, it was all bandit and SAM clear until my return trip, where I got damage, fuel leak, and I spent my remaining fuel climbing to have a high potential energy.

While I was gliding towards my homebase, 2x fully loaded strike flights spot me, and I cannot manouver or do anything as I have no engine power and barely enough energy, my airspeed was similar to a 737's climbing speed.

In short, I belly landed that Raptor with barely any systems left, and empty stores of chaff and flares...

That is what the campaign can expect you to pull off, and that is on easy.

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The truth is, you want to face the brunt of TAW...

Well the training missions isn't the best way to "battle harden" in my opinion.

It is the campaigns, things that seems simple can quickly turn into a friggin nightmare.

Like the "milk run" description I gave Home Fries a while ago, it was all bandit and SAM clear until my return trip, where I got damage, fuel leak, and I spent my remaining fuel climbing to have a high potential energy.

While I was gliding towards my homebase, 2x fully loaded strike flights spot me, and I cannot manouver or do anything as I have no engine power and barely enough energy, my airspeed was similar to a 737's climbing speed.

In short, I belly landed that Raptor with barely any systems left, and empty stores of chaff and flares...

That is what the campaign can expect you to pull off, and that is on easy.

:thumbsup: Yes ...... its the uncertainty you experience within the Campaigns. No amount of training missions can get you completely ready for that. The other of course is MP missions. Particular if you've got me as your trusty, ever dependable wingie. That's why the AI wingman are so popular when I fly. They at least don't fly up your tailpipe when protecting your six, or accidentally letting off a stray missile when locked to the Lead for navigational purposes. :P

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or accidentally letting off a stray missile when locked to the Lead for navigational purposes. :P

I have to hear this story!

BTW, I get around that by keeping cannon armed. Either cannon or AIM-9X works, as long as your AIM-9X are internal only. The AIM-9X (when stored internally) takes two trigger pulls to launch (the first opens the bay door).

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I have to hear this story!

BTW, I get around that by keeping cannon armed. Either cannon or AIM-9X works, as long as your AIM-9X are internal only. The AIM-9X (when stored internally) takes two trigger pulls to launch (the first opens the bay door).

Screw AMRAMM's. Sidewinders rule. I'd have them in all bays too bad maximum is only 6.

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