Chopper

Exactly so. My short answer to that is yes. As does outsourcing work to poorer nations. As does the rise of computers and robotics. Wasn't there a recent movie about that? "I Robot or something? These are just work-arounds that will have, does have, the same consequences.

Well Lee, if I had to pick the single biggest reason for it's demise, that would be it. However, it must be added that it's how that came about that would be the root cause. It certainly was the end of Republican Rome. Rome was at constant war throughout it's history, except for one year. Like all armies of the time, the Roman army was a citizen army, and arfare took away it's farmers, who ran into debt and paid it off by selling their family land to the Roman aristocracy cheap. The aristocracy could make these lands profitable by using slaves, dirt cheap due to its abundance. True the soldiers were given new lands, usually far away and after the aristocracy took first choice. Slavery fascilitates the concentration of wealth. In Imperial times the situation got to the point where citizenship had to be given to all within the empire to compensate, to replenish the armies and tax base. It was not enough as wealth continued to concentrate in fewer hands so that in the end the Roman army was almost entirely mercenary. When Aetius met Attila at Chalons he had a small core of "Roman" Imperial troops with bulk of the rest of the army being Frankish, Visigoth and Burgundian troops. The aristocracy had long stopped paying head to the Emperor and looked to their own interest, so Rome could no longer put forth a cohesive and reliable defense. 35 years after Chalons, the last "True Roman", Syagrius, in the last remaining Roman territory of Western Rome in northern Gaul (roughly Normandy), was defeated by Clovis of the Franks. Actually David, it was Alexander that put an end to it, although I can't help but feel that Alex had the capacity to revive it. The Spartans removed democracy for awhile until their system completely failed there and had to let it return. A democracy can function quite well with slavery, at least as it was defined by Athens. Athens thrived with both and all the leading Greek city-states were turning to democracy while maintaining slavery. Thebes became democratic, then smashed Spartan hegomony. However, Alexander put an end to it all. Slavery does work in a democracy, Athenian style democracy and therefore necessarily limited, but only up to a point, wherein it quickly becomes dea weight and Athens would surely have gone down the road to its demise as Rome would. I would think the Southern states would have followed that path as well. It could have functioned well as an independant nation for some time, but it too would soon collapse as Rome did and Athens likely would have. And this not even going into the morality of the institution, which carries its own consequences to a civilization.

Civil wars in general are a fascinating due to some peculularities. They are the most viscious of wars and yet leads to stability. Sometimes anyway, which can't be said of other conflict types. I soak up as much as I can about the American Civil War. I'm sure there are very few schools, if any, in the "Western world" that don't cover it at least in part. I would agree that it is the defining moment in American culture, moreso than the Revolutionary War. My feeling is that it is indeed unfinished business from 1776. France underwent a Revolution soon after the American colonies, but went immediately into a civil war. The same for Russia/USSR.. There being the better part of a century of separation between the Revolution and the Civil War is somewhat unusual. This may be due to the fact that these were new people in a new land dealing with new concepts and time needed to pass for things to gell and errors and imbalances become evident.

A 300Gb external hard drive and alot of time with family. "Kingdom of Heaven" is a great flick John. I have it in my collection along with Troy, King Arthur, Alamo and Alexander. Possibly the best done of the lot.

Or what used to be Quebec, then to be severed off as the Indian Territories. But that's for another discussion Great stuff. I cheated using umbrella terms like "cultural clash" but m_r and all say it better and more acurately, albeit necessarily truncated. This just goes to show the complex connections of history.

Yeah thanx stans. Being dogged by problems that have sucked my time away. I'll get through it. Soon I hope. I miss being here.

My take on this is that the root cause of the Civil War was a clash of 2 very different cultures, industrial, slave free etc vs agrarian, slavery etc. The frustration had no way of diffusing because of the imbalance of representation in Washington, thus it became a state vs federal power issue. This cultural clash has many similarities up here with Quebec. The main reason a civil war has not erupted here is the decentralized nature of our system, relieving some of this stress by the greater powers to the provinces. The North and South could easily have split and formed 2 self-sustaining nations, although I suspect, with the expansion in the west, a clash may have been inevitable. Indeed, it was one of the issues that increased the pressure to the breaking point. On slavery it was just part of the cultural package. Lincoln had been trying to bring about emmancipation but, ironically, met with opposition within his own party (the newly formed Republican Party was formed around the platform of business and anti-slavery). However, this opposition would be evaporate with the very real possibility of European intervention, particularily Britain who's cotton mills were being severely hampered by the disruption of raw cotton. By declaring the USA slave free, Europe could not morally support the South, thus isolating the South and dooming it's cause. Yes, Ken Burns did a wonderful job and should be mandatory reading/viewing on the subject. However, one can make a career out of this subject as in fact many have. It is extremely complex, as is the nature of any civil war, the most destructive and mean of any type of conflict.

Mornin all. Hope y'all had a great Christmas and Boxing Day (where applicable). The snow is actually melting. There's bare ground showing for the 1st time in a month.

Merry Christmas to all.

I'm in. Heck, I have to travel straight north to get States-side, and I have to cross a bridge, tunnel or get on a boat to do it. I'm surrounded by water to the north, west and south. With the Trent-Severn lock system to the east, I'm living on a freekin island.

S!

S!

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Good morn all. Well it's ...... winter.

HBD Brian.

M_R !!!!! No not the photo, YOU. You you.. Hot damn, golly geez, far out cool and funky and a hearty Lord T'underin Jaysus. Welcome back m_r. It's me Sulla. Well that's not me now, but it was until ...... I joined the Marines ....... specifically VMF-124. Great stuff.

I',M IN I'M IN. Been getting "connection refused" for .......... ages. Good mornin. Fricken cold. Snowed this morn. Gotta go to bed. Long day today, and tomorrow............ I mean yesterday and today.

Top of the morning to you all.

Good morning. Heck of a storm last night. Very nice this morn.

"Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar." Gaius Julius Caesar

Afternoon all. It's September and it's still hot, 35C/95F, and sticky.

Suttlebutt I heard is that Biden may ask him to be his running mate.

Budget had been cut back by the feds by some $135 million a couple of years ago I believe.