Echo4India
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Posts posted by Echo4India
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Stop whining already, you're just as guilty
Take this kind of stuff to that other room. Thats what it there for and frankly tells you right off the bat what to expect. I think most of your angst has been borne there anyways and showing off in here will not get you the response you're looking for.That's a pretty serious charge. I take it you can go through my posts in the Wardroom and show a pattern of this. Souce my guilty behavior Mike... all the posts I've made are here. Go ahead... please source my disrespectful "guilty" conduct in the wardroom. I don't really care what response you give Mike as long as it has some modecom of respectful conversation.
Byron and I have known each other for a pretty long time. We definitely don't agree with each other on some things but I always respect him because he sticks by what he believes and never hits below the belt.Again a pretty serious charge. Please back that up.
He's a staight fighter and always a stand up guy, even when he's wrong.I believe I've actually apologised for not being able to back something up... but oh wait... that was in the Focsle.
Go ahead Mike. Show me how I'm guilty.
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Not getting into this kind of debate Chris, sorry.
There's no debate Mike. Learn it. Live it. Act on it. We may actually have some fun. P-S, I understand you're a plank owner here. I don't really care. When you get out of line with me and get disrespectful I'm going to let you know it... and keep on letting you know it until you get it. If you don't like that, then have Boats ask me to opt out of this Forum. But... I was asked to join this board from the HULL mailing list. Our conduct there was MUCH more respectful than the conduct you've displayed. That is a fact.
Yeah okay fair enough. Not sure it means they need to have a small war with anybody to understand their capabilities though.Yeah don't have a great history of it. My last project had to deal with PLAN in the 1970's and there was very little interoperability at all within the PLAN itself never mind across the services.
Here's some Rand reading.
The People's Liberation Army as Organization:
http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF182/
Chapter 5 covers your political officers bit.
Chapter 8 covers modernization.
Thank you. This is very informative.
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I'm watching a presentation on thr History channel about the Normandy landing, and it got me wondering. How in the hell did they acomplish that without "embedded reporters" and their whining about civilian casualties? My father was on that beach, and although it wasn't his favorite topic, he was pretty open with me about it when I picked the USN as a career. Maybe its better he died before some politically correct nitwit could attempt to shame him.
Grandpa was an Army Combat Correspondent that morning! He lugged a huge metal beast of a typewriter onto the beach!... that's the Army for ya!
It had a stinking bullet hole in it! Actually, there were embedded reporters and film crews with Overlord. There's a sad sad story about how one Sgt. was tasked with getting film taken of the first waves of landings back to England. It is said to have had some of the best combat camera ever recorded! The film was destroyed when it fell into the sea as the Sgt. was trying to get back onto one of the LST's. Many civilian jounalist "served" as Army correspondents as well. Ernie Pyle is a great example.The big difference between then and now is both attitude and outlook. Back then most of the American-and allied-press saw the war as "us against evil." Now most of the press sees, "the world against big bad America." But, from my own experience, the type of folks who decide to cover military affairs are not usually anti-military or anti-America. That process happens back in the newsroom. The reasons why are very complicated.
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\Very Passive Aggressive post.
Mike... Mike... Mike... Sigh... The only thing that agressive here is how you talk to folks. Throttle back man. We might even get a few more people to participate.
These are the questions I asked (in one case its asking your opinion).What makes you think the Chinese don't know their capabilities?
The speed of their buildup. It's hard to imagine suddenly having a huge cadre of experienced Petty Officers and Lt's ready to fall into billets. I remember from the Cops (sourcing myself GASP! The Thought!) that mid-level NCO's and Officers played a huge part in training and ops. So... they not only kept the gear running but trained those comming up behind them. The rapidity of the PLAN build-up doesn't seem to allow for that type of steady training cycle. Hey... I could be wrong... but it seems reasonable to assume that the leadership may have some questions about the ability of their ships to put to sea, shoot, move and communicate.
Do you have anything that shows bad training?I don't think "bad" training is the problem. Lack of institutional ability-at this stage-is the problem. I'm going to see if Proceedings had anything on the 1996 PLAN ops. I remember a Navy guy I knew at the time telling me that during the crises the PLAN didn't really work all that well. I'll see what I can dig up that's more recent.
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Guess no answers to the questions. Not sure it was tongue and cheek that I spotted.
Mike... you should know for someone who does as much shoveling as you do.
How about this, just try it, believe me it's fun... consider people's opinions with the same kind of respect they afford you! Novel! I know! But it's fun. Try it. 
It's supposed to be fun Mike... take a pill bro.
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By the way... I'm always trying to be funny!
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You're not actually implying that the Chinese don't know their capabilities are you? I'll bite would like to know why you think they don't know?
So they should go to war to test their capabilities? How absurd really. I can see where you are going with it but killing people and spending millions (possibly billions) on a war to test one's capabilities makes no sense.
I understand what you are saying but to claim they don't know they're own capabilities or that their training programs are bunk is off. Got any sources to back any of these statements ?
I didn't know I threw out any numbers there?!?!? I certainy can source my opinion, MY BRAIN, given to me by LORD R. GOD!
By the way Mike, I suggested the Chinese might attack Vietnam as a test... because they have done it before. Absurd? How about the war with Spain? "Give me the war and I'll get you the story." That's not Chinese, friend... that's American! By the way... I really thought you'd spot tounge in cheek. -
Gents,
The arguments here are solid on both sides. The fact is there is no way for anyone-most of all the Chinese-to be sure exactly what their TRUE capabilities are. The fact of the matter is they need a small war. I'm not trying to be funny. Something like a boarder war with Vietnam... to test their ability to control their forces and measure their training ability. "Exercises," done by politically connected officers with mush to lose (the PLA has massive buisness interests) is not really a way to be sure. They need a real conflict. Remember the Great White Fleet! Isn't the war with Spain when the USN really arrived?
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Financing debt is a business. You do it to make money
Sure... as we send CVS toward Taiwan they would never do anything like threaten to dump our bonds sending many of our credit companies, mortagage companies (along with the mortgage holders) and brokerage houses into oblivion. They'd never do that... never...
Yes house of cards...yawn..Yup... keep tellin yourself that.
Anything new on Chinese CV's?Negative... the story still hasn't been denied. There's some stuff going around about the PLAN looking at Su-33's... but I wouldn't call it credible. I'm keeping an eye on it. No recent pics of Varag either... by that I mean within the past month.
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Another thought; if we did get into a naval arms race, why would the Chinese want to finance our debt? Increasingly, we live in debt house of cards.
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And we're doing a good job of financing their Navy while they finance our debt... I'm not a current or former professional like a handful of people on this thread, just an amatuer like most of us. But am I wrong on this?
I'm afraid not. You are correct. No one really knows if Bejing would start to try and pressure their banks to dump our paper if we got into a hot and heavy situation with them. Right now they own most of the cards.... litterally... though we could always raise import tarifs... and a CVS might show up around the Straights of Mallaca... and start stopping and inspecting China bound oil tankers for terrorists or something. Scary thoughts.
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Heh ... of course, something similar was said about tanks and ATGMs after the Yom Kipur war ...
What about warships? Could they literally have "shields?" A nuke powered CVN can generate quite a bit of energy.
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But it is getting damn expensive for the US to have a massive dominant Navy. How much more will it be to have a massive and dominant Navy with this new level of competition?
That's a darn good question. Right now, the current level of naval expenditure is barley politically sustainable.
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Sigh...with every LCS you are getting a minesweeper
I want dedicated minesweepers! Not a toaster, dryer, blender, walk your dog er, and make dinner all in one LCS! Seriously, IMHO this thing is trying to do to many things with to little firepower.
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"How is this different that any other nation other than they happen to be Chinese instead of French, American, British etc. etc. ? Not really a Chinese problem....but one that all governments face."
Likewise I remember alot of jibba jabba out of the US corner about how close that "hotdog" Chinese pilot was flying
Saving face is not uniquely Chinese and all governments seek to cover their asses when errors occur. I don't think what the Chinese are doing is specifically anti American as pro Chinese...there's a difference The difference is when the public in the US loses faith and confidence in their government they can vote them out. In China the government stays in power-unless over run by force-and has a chance to swing public opinion by every method of state power... moral or not.
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"and how could a modern government operate without any goals? For that matter given their progress across the board why would you assume otherwise?"
I suspect the government is not of one mind on what their goals should be. My opinion is they are debating just what type of power they want to be. There is the Japanese example of economic power exclusivly and trying to attain policy objectives through consensus. Then there is the US model of translating a large GNP into military power to influence events worldwide... consenus or no consensus.
"How is this different that any other nation other than they happen to be Chinese instead of French, American, British etc. etc. ? Not really a Chinese problem....but one that all governments face."
True. But unlike most governments the Chinese rely very heavily-in the wake on Tinnamen-on nationalism as a binding force to keep the communist dysnasty relevant and legitimate. The type of ardent nationalism stoked right now by bejing is difficult to control. Remember the Belgrade embassy bombing? Remember the mobs at our embassy? Remember the spy plane? It was obvoiusly an accident-but Bejing kept insisting to their public the American crew had deliberatly hit their jet. They had to say that... or lose face. Dangerous.
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Good rate of fire and excellent against other surface combatants of it size and lower. The 76mm gun comparison was just a bit unfair as most of the combatants it would face would be of lower calibers, RPG's etc.
SLAM-ER very good against land targets as well. Could be the ASuW module although that hasn't been exactly set in stone.
H-60 was referring to the family of hawk helicopters.. Minehunting system will not be on the helo's but pulled or of the UUV types.
Yes but critical missions they have.
Ahhh minesweepers! I'd trade every LCS for more modern minesweepers!
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Well thats the thing really. They are essentially developing into a military power fairly openly whereas the US and the USSR had the benefit of doing it under the context of a World War and then a Cold War So the perception is they are arming for something other than their own defense or less devious foreign policy objectives.
It's so hard to tell. I wonder if the Chinese leadership even knows what their goals are? There are probably many schools of thought within China. Much of the naval build up may have to do with nationalism... and China's 19th century humiliations at the hands of great naval powers. The danger of using nationalism to keep the masses in line is obvious. Here again, history teaches lessons. Imperial Germany used nationalism to tamp down socialist workers movements (ironic isn't it?). The problem was the German leadership actually began to believe their own hype. Not only that, but they painted themselves into a political corner by getting the masses stoked for an eventual national krieg (Der Tag) that would make the world safe, just... and German led. Bismark always knew where the real line was. The German Emperor?... not sharpest knife in the drawer. When a minor terrorist incident resulted in a murdered Austrian Duke in a minor Balkan city, the German Emperror was quickly aroused by his own nationalism. Error was compounded on error because nationalist Germany could not climb down without a destabalizing loss of face. (Sound familiar?) The rest is history.
China faces similar problems. Taiwan is the obvious flash point. But what about if a Chinese warship is mistakenly hit (like the Stark) and sunk in the P. Gulf? The Chinese leadership might want to negotiate... but the public may EXPECT retaliation. How about another Belgrade embassy bombing? This is the main danger of current Chinese political trends vs. new maritime capability.
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China is becoming a global economic power so their string of pearls strategy makes sense as they must protect their revenue and resource streams as much as the United States or Japan does. Like the US they plan contigencies against perceived adversary's and are going through a significant period of military modernization.
It's facinating to see the link between political ambition and military capability evolve right before one's eyes. I guess there's always the "what decision would I make if I were them" factor. That's why I follow the PLA forces development. I already know what I would do. It's interesting to watch.
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Dad did his M.Phil on China's Emerging Role As A Superpower or something about 8-9 years ago at the Staff College over here, I remember reading up some scary crap about China. Left me wondering why the Ruskies didn't just waltz in and blow the crap outta 'em when they had the chance. But hey, I was 9, kids get a lot of ideas when they're 9. In a nutshell, China's going big- very big. And very fast. And there isn't much we can do to stop them
Jane's ran an issue on Chinese missile tech 3 years ago, read worse stuff there too.
Who's said we should stop them? If they democratize (or at least evolve towards freedom) China could be a very powerful force for peace and stability. The problem is... the current "communist" dynasty is run by some pretty cold fish. This is the same crew that brought you Tinniamen (sp) Square, blocking UN resolutions to Bosnia, Kosovo, Darfur, Iran, Iraq, ect... the 1996 Taiwan missile crises, claiming islands that don't belong to them... it goes on. However, that said, it could be FAR worse. China has tried not make the US an enemy. But when you say "China," understand they are not one big monolithic entity. They have their Hawks and Doves-as we do and most powerful countries. We can learn from history and not repeat the mistake of the British Empire and Imperial Germany. One was an established power. The other was an up and commer. They wound up in huge naval buildup based on an inability to accomodate the national aspirations of each other. We know how that ended. China needs to be watched. As of this moment-they do not need to be contained. BUT-closer relations with India are a trump card that should disuade Chinese hawks from over reaching... hopefully. We'll see.
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Hmmm.... Varyag will be a training CV most likely and you'll probably have another decade before seeing a cohesive Chinese CV battlegroup(s). Have plently of time to get excited about it yet. Much more interested in their DDG and SSK programs for now.
Curious though...what would this announcement later this year be?
OK... I'll make a fool of myself and go out on a limb. I'll make a guess.
Stories like these will continue to leak throughout the next year from "friendly" newpapers with ties to Bejing. Each story will evolve past the next. The idea is cause as little shock in the surrounding region as possible. They've already set some of this stage already. (See Varyag being refitted openly) Finally, a very senior-possibly even their leader-will state China seeks to protect it's "vital intrests" and support "global law and stability" by creating a "sea going navy." Such a navy needs "protection from air threats." That is why China is building a "fleet of three aircraft carriers." He will emphasise again and again the ships are not a threat to anyone.
Mike I agree there is time yet. However, I follow politics as much as I follow naval trends. China is making rapid global inroads literally everywhere. From Australia to Brazil to Iran and Sudan, China is seeking energy, raw materials and influence. To make their influence real and protect vital energy resources they need capability. It doesn't need maritime (meaning air power too) projection power 10-20 years from now. It needs it yesterday! Don't be at all surprised by a rapid ramping up of naval and air force projects. The main obstacle to speeding up these projects is not money or the US... it's the internal reaction of a China that is reeling from change. Much of it has been left behind and is in very bad shape. Spending hundreds of billions of yuan on military capability is a risky proposition.
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Its not official. The Chinese are well known for telling the trust about their military capabilities and equipment. Waiting for pictures of operational equipment is always the best way to know for sure.
Chinese Defense Today and China defense Forums are much more reliable sources in terms of whats going on there. Again pictures are best (just watch for photoshop)
Both are good sites. I look at em a couple of times a week. I tend to agree with you Mike. But Bejing usually is quick to deny carrier rumors. Not this time. Granted a three star is not the same as a four star... or better yet a senior communist authority... however... I wouldn't take this to lightly. It could be prepping the stage for a bigger announcement later this year.
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"Wang said the carrier fleet will not be complete for another three to five years."
That has to be a mistake. They make it sound like a long time!
"Complete" a fleet in 3-5 years! That means the ships are almost finished building and ready for sea trials. However, I do wonder if Bejing will be making an announcement this year about the size of this "fleet."?
P.S. how psyched are sub drivers at PacFlt!!! Targets! Finally! A real reason to deploy! It sort of reminds me of a quote I heard in a movie.
"Finally! Someone worth killing!"
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I waited a while before posting this. I wanted to see if the report was denied by the Chinese. It seems to be standing. So here it is.
Notice the use of the plural word "fleet." It could be a translation error. That's another reason I waited. "Fleet" seems to be standing as well.
Now... I'd wondered if the PLAN buildup was meant to support the Army or stand on it's own. Question answered. The intent of the PLAN buildup is now clear; project power away from mainland China. The only question now is-what's the time frame?
I am surprised by this. I expected the Chinese to use the PLAN as leverage against US power in the W.Pacific. It now appears to be a much deeper effort than Taiwan or foiling US power. I also expected the Chinese to focus on their interior lines of communication to the Persian Gulf. After all, they are historically a land power... not a sea power. So throw out all the garbage about the Chinese being an ancient civilization. This is new and a radical departure from their past.
Associated Press
HONG KONG (Kyodo) — The Chinese military is currently planning to build an aircraft carrier, a pro-Beijing daily in Hong Kong reported Friday.
”The Chinese army will conduct research and build an aircraft carrier and develop our own aircraft carrier fleet,” People’s Liberation Army Lt. Gen. Wang Zhiyuan was quoted as saying in the Chinese-language Wen Wei Po.
”An aircraft carrier is a very important tool for big countries defending their interests in the sea. China is a big country with a long shoreline. An aircraft carrier is necessary to defend our interests in the sea,” he said.
It would be China’s first aircraft carrier and would likely be deployed to join other warships currently in the South China Sea, the newspaper said.
Wang said the carrier fleet will not be complete for another three to five years.
The newspaper said aircraft fit for the carrier and auxiliary warships and submarines are either being built or completed.
It also quoted sources as saying China may deploy its aircraft carrier fleet near the energy fuel supply route in South China Sea where warships are now being deployed.
The barriers for China to build its own aircraft carrier include technology advancement, hardware and software support, building and maintenance costs and political pressure from overseas over China’s becoming a military threat in the region, the newspaper reported.
Take this kind of stuff to that other room. Thats what it there for and frankly tells you right off the bat what to expect. I think most of your angst has been borne there anyways and showing off in here will not get you the response you're looking for.
It had a stinking bullet hole in it! Actually, there were embedded reporters and film crews with Overlord. There's a sad sad story about how one Sgt. was tasked with getting film taken of the first waves of landings back to England. It is said to have had some of the best combat camera ever recorded! The film was destroyed when it fell into the sea as the Sgt. was trying to get back onto one of the LST's. Many civilian jounalist "served" as Army correspondents as well. Ernie Pyle is a great example.
China to build "fleet" of carriers.
in Wardroom
Posted
Thought so. Listen... this crap happens again and I'm going to ask for a second look on it. If this is a club then so be it. I'm not going to stick around being insulted by a dude who gets his kicks being rude from behind a keyboard. That certainly isn't being a "stand up guy." As I've made clear, I'd love to be part of this crew and have fun. That's what this is supposed to be. Let's get back to that. Whadda ya say Mike?