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TAW: its full of surprises.......


Wombat1940
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I'm always surprised at TAW and what appears to be an accurate reflection to the real F22. I've spending a bit of time in the F16's cockpit, which to say the least can be hard work. Nice, but hard. That is when compared to the F22. To the point that when I step in the F22's 'pit and I think this can't be for real. All these pictures (MFD's), how good is this! It makes me feel TAW is a bit arcadish, but I'm constantly reminded otherwise. The latest example being MIG29's topping over 800knots :lol: ...... but apparently they can. :o

However there must be issues within TAW that have been incorrectly mirrored from the real F22.

By way of example TAW's F22 "Ramp" start. However to be fair to TAW there is no Ramp start procedure, so why kid around: its two keystrokes.

However are there other things in TAW which do not reflect reality? Missile evasion maybe?

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That said, there is no way a MiG-21 should be able to catch a Raptor at MIL in a tail chase (at least without burning all of its fuel within minutes), yet I have had this happen despite my being supersonic at mil and at high altitude. Its just that DID "just slightly" enhanced some of the bad-guy aircraft to make the game more challenging.

Unfortunately, this information is locked into the EXE file, so there is no simple tweaking of datafiles to correct this issue.

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I'm always surprised at TAW and what appears to be an accurate reflection to the real F22. I've spending a bit of time in the F16's cockpit, which to say the least can be hard work. Nice, but hard. That is when compared to the F22. To the point that when I step in the F22's 'pit and I think this can't be for real. All these pictures (MFD's), how good is this! It makes me feel TAW is a bit arcadish, but I'm constantly reminded otherwise. The latest example being MIG29's topping over 800knots :lol: ...... but apparently they can. :o

However there must be issues within TAW that have been incorrectly mirrored from the real F22.

By way of example TAW's F22 "Ramp" start. However to be fair to TAW there is no Ramp start procedure, so why kid around: its two keystrokes.

However are there other things in TAW which do not reflect reality? Missile evasion maybe?

Hi Wombat,

I think the most notable thing that is not correctly reflected in TAW is the weapon payloads and types, especially A/G weapons.

As far as I know today's F22 do not carry Maverick missiles and only have JDAM BOMB or SDB (small diameter bomb).

But I understand that Mavericks can be quite funny in the game ;-), maybe this could be material for a MOD, sort of real F22 weapons mod.

As for the rest TAW is and remain one of the great simulators ever !

Cheers,

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Hi Wombat,

I think the most notable thing that is not correctly reflected in TAW is the weapon payloads and types, especially A/G weapons.

As far as I know today's F22 do not carry Maverick missiles and only have JDAM BOMB or SDB (small diameter bomb).

But I understand that Mavericks can be quite funny in the game ;-), maybe this could be material for a MOD, sort of real F22 weapons mod.

As for the rest TAW is and remain one of the great simulators ever !

Cheers,

Quote: " ..... But I understand that Mavericks can be quite funny in the game ..... " In what way? (They're my favorite A-G missile ..... so versatile.)

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I can only name a few based from personal experience:

- The obvious attempt at game-balancing by giving every other jet an almost (if not completely) similar flight model to the F22;

- Manual thrust-vectoring;

- Forcing the player to only use CCIP (and a very broken one if I may add) even though an F16 has 3 other modes (and possibly more I haven't heard of) to choose from;

- This is just a personal opinion but I find it awkward that, based from looking at the FPM, the AOA seem to barely increase from zero.

That's about all I got. Obviously, others have probably noticed these things already.

well the Ramp startt may not be too far from real. the REAL F22 takes 30 seconds from in the pit till spoolup and ready to go..

I think I've read somewhere that you only need to flip three switches to start the thing in real life which is why it only takes 30 seconds.

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To be fair, I was actually surprised by how many things DID got right. I mean, it's a 12 year old game. Back then, the plane wasn't even close to flying. There were just some prototypes.

I was also surprised to discover, comparing to other sims, that the performance depicted was relatively reasonable. It's not like earlier DID's F-29 Retaliator, where planes turned on a dime at something like 20g. When trying to move to higher-grade sims, I expected DID ADF/TAW to start looking arcadish like Retaliator, but it still doesn't.

However, I have to disagree with the assessment that the fighter's performance in the game is understated. It might be lower than the best-case scenario, but in a realistic situation, it's actually pretty close to where it should be.

Regarding similar flight models, it's probably more of a simplification/cost-saving measure than a balancing one.

But, then, IRL F-22 isn't really a kinematic monster either. It's a 4-5 generation fighter, its strong point being electronic warfare rather than outright speed or maneuverability, and a very heavy plane, at almost 20 tons of weight.

One of the issues F-22 has to constantly face is its own weight and drag. At the same time, the useful lift isn't all that great. For instance, F-15 can take off with 2.5 times it's own weight; for F-22, it's only 1.9 times. As a result, there isn't as much weight left for fuel as in other fighters. While F-119 engines allow F-22 to use fuel more efficiently at supersonic speeds, its weight also makes it a forced measure. Afterburning isn't quite as inefficient (relatively) at mid-high supersonic speeds, and so earlier generation fighters, built around speed, can afford to run their engines at full thrust for longer.

In terms of maneuverability, it feels a bit strange when I can barely outmaneuver an F-14, of course, but generally, G-force limitations are still there. The titular fighter is as maneuverable as it should be, but some others with high wing loading might need their lift capacity checked. Maneuverability limitations with constant G-limit manifest themselves as insufficient stability or insufficient lift at low speeds with high AoA.

As for stealth, the -40 dB RCS figures have been obtained at very specific angles and at specific frequencies. The efficiency of shaping varies depending on the angle, and most stealth aircraft have either a "butterfly", a "Pac-Man" or a "heart" shaped RCS diagram. For a supersonic fighter, since the engine exhausts have to be exposed, it's forced to a "heart" shape, where the RCS is low from the front, moderate from the sides, and significant (still lower than usual) from the rear. This is partially, but not completely, modeled in DID's game.

Radar-absorbent materials have specific efficiency bands. For instance, a material can provide -18dB at its best point, -15dB in the 8-16 GHz octave (there are plenty of commercial RAM today that don't have their specs classified), and only -6dB in the wider 4-20 GHz range (or higher, but anything above 20 GHz is meaningless as it's absorbed by air moisture). As a general rule, low-frequency radars, like ones encountered in AWACS aircraft, large air defense radars, OTH radar installations, are substantially less affected by both shaping and coatings (but are affected by frame materials, like in the nearly all-carbon B-2) than J-band radars found on combat aircraft.

As a result, stealth is quite fragile and localized in effect, so for a practical scenario TAW certainly doesn't downplay it. ADF/TAW's model is greatly oversimplified, however. For instance, what angle you are at relative to the opponent shouldn't affect how easy your radio emissions are to detect, or more precisely shouldn't affect it in the same way as RCS diagram variation.

And, more importantly, there is a major difference between passive and active RF detection. Passive detection (catching another's radar or comms emissions) only provides approximate heading, with very unreliable when any cues to anything else. In contract, active detection provides accurate altitude and heading (from comparing split monopulse beams), distance (from pulse timing) and speed (from Doppler shift) information, as well as identification cues (from return shape and/or spectrum). Then there is detection to tracking transition. A target is tracked once it gives a consistent target ID, while detection only is just a recurring return that may or may not be the same object.

None of this seems to be processed by the game, instead simply working as a binary detection or no detection. So its stealth simulation routine is probably one of the least realistic components.

In defense of the game, it's about the only one to even have such a routine, though.

On ramp start:

There isn't really any set start time for any fighter. There are pre-flight checks, which are required still. A modern fighter like F-22 automates most of the procedures. Nonetheless, be it for F-15 or F-22 or another fighter, the overall procedure from hangar to takeoff is closer to 15-30 minutes if everything is fine. 30 seconds refers to what the pilot has to do after getting into the cockpit and having all checks and preparations completed.

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To be fair, I was actually surprised by how many things DID got right. I mean, it's a 12 year old game. Back then, the plane wasn't even close to flying. There were just some prototypes. .......

Nice post :thumbsup: .

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