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Campaign: Operation Scimitar


Wombat1940
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I'm still very limited in the amount of time I spend flying in TAW - The brief moments I get to post on the forums and shortly and drop by TS3 is all I can spare for another week at least.

Anyway, just thought I'd share this :)

Cheers!

Eagle

Thanks for the public post. You've shamed me into continue testing, but its so boring ...... :rolleyes: I'll give your suggest (and HF's) a try. It needs further follow up. Although I'm confident my single test will prove correct. Hope I don't live to regret that statement. :lol:

As far as your limited time, we all fully understand. In fact I worry you are spending too much time at the forum. You just bark the orders and we will obey ...... :lol:

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The reason I suggested the SAM approach, is that the SAM doesn't move at all. However the enemy plane moves around.

This makes it very easy to fly straight ahead at the same flight level and same throttle settings in two occasions:

Flying against enemy planes, external factors which will influence RCS results are: -direction which you are flying -direction in which the enemy is flying -wings angle (flying level, or on a 15 degrees left turn, or 90 degrees to the side, etc) -possibly altitude difference as well.

I'm just thinking it might produce more reliable results to try testing it against SAMs which aren't moving around, and which will stay in the same position in front of you, so you don't need to maneuver either.

Understand what your saying but it didn't apply. I was particular careful to monitor the AI wingman, in terms of maintaining consistent values for altitude, bearing and speed. He didn't vary during each package of tests. He constantly climbed to 30000 ft without fail, maintained identical speeds and head to head position. However, I agree, anything else would have skewed and put into question any of my results.

But here's the backup tests you suggested and in truth needed to be done. I think they are self explanatory and, fortunately for me, ;) reflect my previous findings. However I might still have missed something. So please let me know what you all think. There's always a danger with any research that you massage the results to fit the theory. :rolleyes: In my case I didn't expect TAW to model racks in regard to stealth.

If my findings are correct, it will make for some interest discussion about what is a preferred loadout. Who's going to load up with external stores knowing that you can drop them without the remaining racks affecting stealth. TAW model's you as clean. ;)

RacksandStealth2.jpg

F222011-08-2720-33-08-89-1.jpg

Edit: Ooooops! Wrong screenshot.

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This is a bit off topic but others have asked about revised maximum missile range and is repeated here:

1. At 10,000ft, and targeting SAM's/Shilker’s, release 88's at 20 miles maximum and 65’s at 14 miles maximum not necessarily at the recommenced 15 mile/9 mile, all other factors being equal

and

2. At 50,000ft, and targeting SAM's/Shilker’s, release 88's at 25 miles maximum and 65’s at 14 miles maximum (because motor burns out early) not at the recommenced 15 mile/9 mile maximum, all other factors being equal.

These improved outcomes were determined after careful testing, similar to those undertaken for the racks/stealth evaluation.

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Hey Wombat, great work! :thumbsup:

Sorry that you felt forced to do more boring work..... I am grateful for it though! :icon_salute3:

The loadout question is one that obviously cannot be answered easily.. However I will say this:

One (maybe underrated) factor for choosing the clean wings is the great speed benefit you have.

If you expect to see few/some enemy bandits scrambling, pack an extra 2x2 AIM012Rs but not more. That way, once you deal with them, you have clean wings to hurry to the target waypoint, and seal the deal. Internally I like to always at least carry one AGM65s along with the typical AA (2 Rs, 2/3 Cs 2Cs if only 1 AGM65; if 2 AGM65s, then no Cs :( , 2 AIM9s)

The other situation is where you know you're gonna have a lot of company. In this case, I don't like to rely on escorts and WW - Instead I like to pack enough AA myself. Definitely 2x2Rs on the wings, maybe 2Cs and 3 AGM65s on the racks as well. If heavy AAA is expected, then swap 2Cs for 3 extra AGM65s.

I see aircraft as a greater threat than AAA, so I want to make sure I can rather take bandits out, than having my wings full with AGM65s but only 3-4 SAMs and a bunch of enemys easily locking on to the F22.

I tend to not use AGM88s that much, since they take up an entire rack (where I could have 3 AGM65s).

I also tend to not want to give up my externals for stealth, since I always feel, I can deal with whatever they will send my way better if I have more weapons.. ^^ I'm pretty sure that doesn't always apply though........

@Off topic as well, datapoints at midrange altitudes of 20k - 30k might also be something worth figuring out.

I wish calculating these distances were possible by extracting the exact formula from the TAW executable. Now that I think about it, it may be possible using cheat engine:

Searching for an unknown value first, then progressivly searching for a decreassed value as the missile flys furter and further away, which would represent the ammount of fuel the missile had left. Finding the memory area where this data is stored would then allow analysis of what calculations are done to determine how far the missiles can fly.

Maybe with AGM65s, it could also be considered searching for a value 0 once the fuel burns out...

One problem I foresee, is that the fuel-value might be stored in a different location for every new missile that is fired...

The solution might then be to try to find how TAW deals with this... Does it have a counter somewhere, that keeps track of how many missiles are in the air at any given moment?

A lot for me to consider here in this brain dump ^^ Will get on to it soon hopefully..

Cheers!

Eagle

(PS I'm also a bit worried, that I'm spending too much time here while I should be studying ^^)

EDIT

Wow, I've been away from TAW a bit too long... it isn't possible to select the loadout I described in-game, since the AGM65s each take away two internal weapon points.

If I have 1 AGM65, then I can carry 2Rs and 2Cs and 2AIM9s max.

If I have 2 AGM65s, then I can only carry 2Rs and 2AIM9s. I tend to prefer the first solution, however at times one AGM65 isn't enough to destroy certain targets.. So yeah, it is always a difficult decision

Sorry, my bad!

Edited by Eagle_Flight
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A lot for me to consider here in this brain dump ^^ Will get on to it soon hopefully..

Eagle

(PS *I'm also a bit worried, that I'm spending too much time here while I should be studying ^^)

Interesting ..... I will have to explore my weapon load options. I have a bad habit of loading every hard point I've got. Internal and external. :rolleyes: But looking at those stealth/unstealthy range figures I must be like a bloody beacon during ingress. :lol: "Hello Wombat .... don't worry we can see you and thanks, the rest of flight package as well ..... " :(

*You need to stay away ........ ;)

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Great stuff, Gents. Thanks.

Mind if I make a Wiki article out of these findings (with credit given)?

No problem on my count. :thumbsup: Funny though. You do set yourself up for criticism. What if I'm wrong? :( Its never worried me before and it doesn't worry me now ...... :P

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I have a bad habit of loading every hard point I've got. Internal and external.

<...>

"Hello Wombat .... don't worry we can see you and thanks, the rest of flight package as well ..... " :(

Hence The Wombatinator: Feared equally by enemies and flight members alike. :rofl:

The way TAW campaigns go, it's usually better to load up for bear and shoot at what comes after you. With aircraft, stealth doesn't matter if they're close enough to eyeball you, at which point you better have some AA capability. SAMs aren't as bad because they don't chase you.

This is actually one of the reasons I'd love to do some custom campaigns that focus on air defenses. This way stealth is a more viable alternative.

Also, here's an example of a stealth mission I did for Avenging Scimitar (circling back to the subject of this thread). You'll need to scroll about halfway down the page to see the write-up.

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I'm also fine with all this being published in the wiki :)

(also mind the short edit-bump regarding my above post... I forgot that AGM65s take up 2 internal points instead of one, making the decision even harder to make)

I'd love to see missions where going stealthy-like, using terrain mapping, and every available advantage is needed in order to not get shot down.

SAMs could indeed be more challenging if their numbers where increased, since the rate at which a new SAM fires upon you is greater and they don't run out of missiles all that fast.

IMHO, increassing the difficulty in the menu just makes it almost impossible to break their lock, unless you use terrain to make them crash into the ground...

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Also, here's an example of a stealth mission I did for Avenging Scimitar (circling back to the subject of this thread).

Before I saw this I was about to do the same. I'm waiting for a Strike mission in AS. I'm currently required to attack airbases, its after 20:00:00, my stealth loadout is to be 2 C's, 2 Sidewinders, 2 Mavericks (although I now think your choice of JDAM's obviously is better). Maybe I'll have one of each. :unsure: Stay tuned. ;)

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Flew level 3 Strike mission with just 4 x 1 F22's (no Escorts, no WW's). Loadout 2 x C's, 2 x Sidewinders, 1 x JDAM, 1 x Maverick all internal. Flew EMCON 1, took out a single enemy Hawk on ingress with a C. Took out my target with the JDAM, but the 3 wingman elected to use their Mavericks ... :huh: and were successful. dropped all stores on return journey (fuel problem for wingman having to catch me on return trip (will slow right down next time) and got a mission success. However the whole mission was very uneventful, with only one bandit. Can't say this was due to stealth (I think not). The mission targeted a border airbase. I need to do do a "deep" strike to see what happens.

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Do you remember which internal slot you put the JDAM in? If I remember correctly, you can make sure they use the JDAM by placing it in a specific slot, because they will use up the A2G weapons based on the followin pylon order - provided both A2G weapons are similarly suitable.

From the Custom Loadout Weapons MFD menu point of view:

--------- Internals ---------

( 1. - 3. - 5. - 6. - 4. - 2. )

In the custom loadout screen, it will be mirrored, so positions there will be:

--------- Internals ---------

( 2. - 4. - 6. - 5. - 3. - 1. )

So having mavs in 6. and JDAM in 5. should result in them using up slot 5 before slot 6 - provided the target can be engaged by both weapon types (like a building). Ground units I think would still get targeted down by mavs.

(Sorry, EDIT in bold and red - However I was able to shortly confirm that this does work, and might be very important to know, so you can have your wingman save up the versatile MAV for some SAMs further on)

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Do you remember which internal slot you put the JDAM in? If I remember correctly, you can make sure they use the JDAM by placing it in a specific slot, because they will use up the A2G weapons based on the followin pylon order - provided both A2G weapons are similarly suitable.

Sorry ...don't understand your numbering system.

Can you use this (call it Layout X)

weapons1.jpg

weapon2.jpg

and this (call it Layout Y)

weapon3.jpg

weapon4.jpg

In Layout Y, I had

Sidewinders in 3 and 8

C's in 4 and 7

JDAM in 5

Maverick in 6

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Okay:

In layout Y (the internal bay only has room for 4 missiles:)

The pylon order in which the AI will throw bombs is:

10 -> 1 -> 9 -> 2 -> 7 -> 4 -> 6 -> 5

(I ignored the AIM 9X positions because no bombs can be placed there)

Just remember: In the picture of the F22, it is facing towards the viewer, the MFD however represents the slots as if the F22 were facing away from the viewer

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Okay:

In layout Y (the internal bay only has room for 4 missiles:)

The pylon order in which the AI will throw bombs is:

10 -> 1 -> 9 -> 2 -> 7 -> 4 -> 6 -> 5

(I ignored the AIM 9X positions because no bombs can be placed there)

Just remember: In the picture of the F22, it is facing towards the viewer, the MFD however represents the slots as if the F22 were facing away from the viewer

Very interesting. Their A-G weapon comprised a JDAM on rack 5 and a Maverick on rack 6 (I don't think it was the other way round). If what you say above is correct then the AI should have fire the JDAM first, but he didn't. He fired his Maverick ....... so maybe I had the Maverick on rack 5 and JDAM on rack 6 :unsure:

I've just flown another mission with the same loadout where I missed with my JDAM and the wingman never fire anything. :huh: But I need to check all that with another mission. I stupidly forgot to watch my missile camera view to see what my JDAM hit. :angry:

Are you sure about that firing order thing for AI wingman? If its correct it might explain why the AI wingman don't always use there BVR weapons first because they are on the wrong racks. :o

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Very interesting. Their A-G weapon comprised a JDAM on rack 5 and a Maverick on rack 6 (I don't think it was the other way round).

Well like I mentioned, they will fire Pylon 6 before Pylon 5. So in your previous case MAV before JDAM.

If what you say above is correct then the AI should have fire the JDAM first, but he didn't. He fired his Maverick ....... so maybe I had the Maverick on rack 5 and JDAM on rack 6 :unsure:

I think you got a bit mixed up. Going by the layout Y, it explains what they fired MAV and not JDAM.

I've just flown another mission with the same loadout where I missed with my JDAM and the wingman never fire anything. :huh: But I need to check all that with another mission. I stupidly forgot to watch my missile camera view to see what my JDAM hit. :angry:

^^ Yeah, provided you give them some time, and the Wingmen don't need to go defensive on IP they should fire as described. Also don't change to the next waypoint to early.

Are you sure about that firing order thing for AI wingman? If its correct it might explain why the AI wingman don't always use there BVR weapons first because they are on the wrong racks. :o

I know this is correct for A2G weapons that can validly be used to take out a target.

I'm unsure about A2A weapons completely. I would assume they have a different logic for A2A weapon selection.

SHORT EDIT:

Yeah only when two weapons seem equally valid will the AI use the Pylon numbering to fire them:

So for example even though I had rockets in Pylon 10 and mavs in Pylon 1, AI skipped the rockets and used the mavs. I'm guessing the thought behind this, is that rockets (for the AI) are only good against mobile units, and not against buildings, so they will not consider using that weapon.

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Flew level 3 Strike mission with just 4 x 1 F22's (no Escorts, no WW's). Loadout 2 x C's, 2 x Sidewinders, 1 x JDAM, 1 x Maverick all internal. Flew EMCON 1, took out a single enemy Hawk on ingress with a C. Took out my target with the JDAM, but the 3 wingman elected to use their Mavericks ... :huh: and were successful. dropped all stores on return journey (fuel problem for wingman having to catch me on return trip (will slow right down next time) and got a mission success. However the whole mission was very uneventful, with only one bandit. Can't say this was due to stealth (I think not). The mission targeted a border airbase. I need to do do a "deep" strike to see what happens.

I've just done that "deep" strike. I encountered no A-A treats within dangerous range. I was careful not put the AI wingman into afterburner to catych me on the way home. However they were again dangerously short of fuel again on egress. I need to monitor more carefully their fuel use, prior to the target area. Funny though. Same plane, same speed, same loadout, why so much fuel for them and not me?

I had to land at a neutral airbase to save them. They dutifully taxied to a holding bay and I took off again without them. I inadvertently landed at the wrong home airbase :rolleyes: and upon closing the mission found I had failed the mission but lost no points. :unsure: Maybe because I had not completed the mission and it was thought I stopped for a "twinkle" before proceeding to the target. :lol:

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Well like I mentioned, they will fire Pylon 6 before Pylon 5. So in your previous case MAV before JDAM. .......

.....

......... so they will not consider using that weapon.

That all very informative. Thanks. I'm now going to:

Fly another strike mission with 4 x 1 F22's.

Have my stealthy loadout with JDAM on rack 6 and MAV on rack 5.

Check the wingmans fuel use.

Not change WP's too early.

See why the hell my JDAM missed.

Oh yes ......... and put on my black pajamas ........ ;)

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I had to land at a neutral airbase to save them. They dutifully taxied to a holding bay and I took off again without them. I inadvertently landed at the wrong home airbase :rolleyes: and upon closing the mission found I had failed the mission but lost no points. :unsure: Maybe because I had not completed the mission and it was thought I stopped for a "twinkle" before proceeding to the target. :lol:

Did you reset your LAND_AT_ANY_BASE back to 1?

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I've mentioned the high fuel consumption of my AI wingmen during strike flights. The high fuel consumption rate is consistent throughout the flight when compared to me in the Lead aircraft, even though all things seem to be equal: 100% mil setting, same loadout, same altitude. Ive tried to throttle back (80%) but it doesn't seem to change things. It's most frustrating on a lengthy mission to see your wingmen running out of fuel for no apparent reason. Is this an inherent fault with TAW, or am I missing something?

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I realize that my post is late to the party, but you can click on the TAW Layout Guide in the references menu, and all will be clear.

Thanks for the pointer to the Layout Guide. However I think the issue here is more specifically about the use of hard points and the AI wingman. As the AI wingman determine their own choice of weapon to use, it appears to be based on the selecting a particular hard point and the thus the weapon strapped to it. Following Eagle's advice I strapped a JDAM to hard point number 6 and a MAV to number 5. This is using my nomenclature shown again below:

weapon3-1.jpg

When ordered to engage they dutifully fire off their JAMs at their designated target.

EDIT1: I've now done some more testing using Custom Combat with 3 wingman, limo as target, one JDAM and one MAV mounted on either hard point 5 or 6

EDIT2: I've now had a closer look at the TAW Layout Guide in the references menu and I realise it saying the same thing. I think. :unsure: However, as I am always so slow on the uptake, it didn't immediate seem that way ....... :(

Findings (if this has already been done before I apologies now):

The wingmen will priorities hard point 6 irrespective whether strapped with the MAV or the JDAM

The wingmen will fire off the JDAM even if I have locked up the target with MAV or even CANNON. (I can't lock up the target with the JDAM as that is done prior to take off by others.) However the wingman have no such restriction. (It will be interesting to to see whether the pre-designated target for a wingman in a strike mission can be overridden by the above.)

I haven't tried hard points 4 and 7 but from what Eagle say, the wingman's hard point A -G priority should be 7, 4, 6, 5. or if including the external Hard Points 10 -> 1 -> 9 -> 2 -> 7 -> 4 -> 6 -> 5. This means AI wingman weapon select for A-G can be arranged before to take-off. I'm assume the same priority will be maintain irrespective of which A-G weapon you use.

The AI wingman will even fire JDAMs at designated targets selected by the Lead and real pilot. In other words you. :o

I'm now going to check what happens with A-A weapons. Stay tuned .....

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...I haven't tried hard points 4 and 7 but from what Eagle say, the wingman's hard point A -G priority should be 7, 4, 6, 5. ....

I just now realized, that the hardpoints 4 & 7 (diagram Y) also never have the possibility for A2G weapons, so these also don't really matter for the A2G loadout planning.

I am looking forward to the results of A2A testing! If I remember correctly, (as of diagram X) having 6 AIM120Cs internally in slots 4 to 9: Slot 6 would get fired first, then 7, then 4... In the very short testing I did earlier today this was all I found out.

My results on A2A didn't represent the expected order according to the A2G list.

Awaiting Wombats results on the A2A tests. :icon_salute3:

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