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Campaign: Operation Scimitar


Wombat1940
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I'm now going to check what happens with A-A weapons. Stay tuned .....

No ...... totally different modeling as I think both Eagle and HF have previously (I can at least remember that ... ;) ) They appear to be totally free agents in the choice ofweapon and its hard point location for A-A weapons. Although I would expect them to discharge their external weapons first. But I think HF has said that before as well .... :lol:

Edit: Sorry Eagle missed your last post.

I only checked externally mounted A -A weapons. I assumed it would be the same for internal. Could be my mistake. Will check.

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I usually notice the opposite, in that the AI is usually more efficient when maneuvering in formation by clever use of throttling back.

Just to clarify: No A2A engagements? Prolonged A2A battles is what usually gets them low on fuel for me...

No engagement, just straight flying. You can almost watch the fuel gauge dropping. :(

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I just now realized, that the hardpoints 4 & 7 (diagram Y) also never have the possibility for A2G weapons, so these also don't really matter for the A2G loadout planning.

Good point. I'd missed that. :thumbsup:

There's still lots of things to check such as: What it the Lead locks up a building using the LANTIRN and then instructs the wingman to engage with a JDAM strapped to the priority 6 hard point. Will he engage, fire and hit the target? But a single individual can only check so much before it becomes boring, sorry, tedious ...... :rolleyes:

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I just now realized, that the hardpoints 4 & 7 (diagram Y) also never have the possibility for A2G weapons, so these also don't really matter for the A2G loadout planning.

I am looking forward to the results of A2A testing! If I remember correctly, (as of diagram X) having 6 AIM120Cs internally in slots 4 to 9: Slot 6 would get fired first, then 7, then 4... In the very short testing I did earlier today this was all I found out.

My results on A2A didn't represent the expected order according to the A2G list.

Awaiting Wombats results on the A2A tests. :icon_salute3:

:o :o :o

Doesn't appear to be that way. I put 6 x C's on each hard point in the internal bay. Nothing anywhere else. Sometime he'd fire two missiles almost instantaneously, but even then there was an order.

The overall order appears to be 9 -> 4-> 8 -> 5 -> 7 -> 6 which is switching side to side and the extreme outside loaded hard point in each case. What must happen with a mix of R's and C's (although there are only 4 hard points available) I don't care to know. :lol: If there are 6 targets at the same range and altitude he drops the whole 6 missiles instantaneously. I watched him do it externally! :lol:

I think I'm going to leave it to him to decide which missile, which hard point he selects and as HF said "he's far smarter than me in making the best choice" and I think its true.

But we should document the A-G findings if it hasn't already been done. Just give me bit of time and I'll submit it (along with my findings on Campaign scoring/promotion) and send it to HF for editing.

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Auto pilot, didn't try manual. Will check next time. In all seriousness its a big issue. Anyway get back to your studies ...... ;)

Tried flying manually but no better. Wingman burns that fuel :( :

Lead

F222011-08-2915-36-21-59.jpg

Wingman

F222011-08-2915-36-41-71.jpg

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On my last Strike mission one of my wingman took a SAM hit. The 4 x 1 F22 Package were carrying A-G of 1 x JDAM plus 1 x MAV. We all used our JDAMs on our designated targets. Naturally the JDAMs were strapped to our number 6 hard points after findings above). This left us 4 MAVs between us. I should have locked up a number of enemy A-G mobiles and got the package to take out 4 of them. Then maybe my #4 would not have got hit on egrees which left him with a fuel leak. I now have LAND_AT ANY_AIRBASE turned on (ie. =1 in the game.cfg), so I was able to land at a closer airbase, complete the mission successfully and with a vane hope the my #4 would be able to make an emergency landing before his fuel ran out. I had forgotten: landing re-equips me and all of my wingman including my #4. As a consequence he was re-fueled and landed quite safely. I think this is an an unfair cheat. :( But don't tell Tiger ....... ;) I must check to see if the same would have happened if I had landed at my designated home airbase with LAND_AT ANY_AIRBASE turned off (ie. =0 in the game.cfg). I don't care about the points providing my #4 makes it to the alternate strip with the fuel leak, that would have been reward enough. Besides I could take-off again, leaving my wingmen behind, while I return to home base and possibly complete the mission successfully. :unsure:

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:o :o :o

Doesn't appear to be that way. I put 6 x C's on each hard point in the internal bay. Nothing anywhere else. Sometime he'd fire two missiles almost instantaneously, but even then there was an order.

The overall order appears to be 9 -> 4-> 8 -> 5 -> 7 -> 6 which is switching side to side and the extreme outside loaded hard point in each case.

Funny, yeah I only flew a very limited test run with 6 Cs, but the AI seemed to prefer shooting the innermost missiles first. Don't know what to make of this yet..

But I'm also not that keen in spending too much time analyzing this behavior, since it doesn't really make any difference which one of the internal Cs the AI fires.

I must check to see if the same would have happened if I had landed at my designated home airbase with LAND_AT ANY_AIRBASE turned off (ie. =0 in the game.cfg).

I think you have the REARM_WINGMEN=1 for that.

Cheers!

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I think you have the REARM_WINGMEN=1 for that.

Good one! :thumbsup: Never even thought of it. :rolleyes: Wonder if they re-arm if they land? Will check it out sometime. There is a detailed breakdown of the meaning of all the game.cfg options somewhere.

So its back to LAND_AT_ANY_BASE=1 and then REARM_WINGMEN=0 for me.

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This has got to be the easiest promotion I've ever had. Into the cockpit at take-off and ......... up come the mission completion success sign. :unsure: Didn't even start my engines. Not sure why it happened but I'll take the points and the promotion. :lol:

Promotion.jpg

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This has got to be the easiest promotion I've ever had. Into the cockpit at take-off and ......... up come the mission completion success sign. :unsure: Didn't even start my engines. Not sure why it happened but I'll take the points and the promotion. :lol:

Maybe you were assigned to destroy a building that had already been destroyed? Don't think you usually get that many points for A2A stuff, so I'm guessing it was a ground strike mission?

Anyways good for you! :thumbsup:

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Maybe you were assigned to destroy a building that had already been destroyed? Don't think you usually get that many points for A2A stuff, so I'm guessing it was a ground strike mission?

Anyways good for you! :thumbsup:

Yes it was a ground strike. I'd paused the sim to have tea. The mission I'd been editing just closed (not CDT) when loading. :( So loaded up again, did my usual edit and vola! :thumbsup: I think your right: somebody else completed the flight for me while I was having tea ..... :lol:

I've just done a deep strike mission in full stealth dress with only 4 x 1 F22's. Lots of dodging and weaving as the map indicates.Bandits got to within 7 miles from me once, but we were using the mountain terrain to help avoid detection. Saved fuel for the wingmen by staying around 70% power which certainly helped but still no where near the economy I was getting as Lead. Their fuel rate usage is a real problem but we made it home. Fairly easy pickings at the target. Took one SAM out that looked an immediate problem, then sent the boys in, each with their one trusty JDAM. Didn't stay around and avoided the temptation to check mission success with the DEL key (In-Flight Mission Briefing). Makes it a bit nervy as you head for Brig. General Battie's office after landing for the de-brief. :P

success1.jpg

It was worth about 6000 points which was a nice bonus. ;)

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I second what Eagle said. You were likely tasked to strike a target, and you got positive Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) by the time you got into the pit. Still, if you were taxed to bag a target, and the target was bagged, then the mission was a success.

Take success any way you get it; after all, you get blamed for failures that aren't your fault.

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:ph43r: This could possibly be used as an exploit though, since you could edit the target site and choose an already destroyed building as the target you are responsible for.

It won't help you win the campaign though, just helps you through the ranks with easy points...

Maybe one should always assign the buildings manually, since you can zoom in on the target site, and pick out the buildings that are still standing..?

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I second what Eagle said. You were likely tasked to strike a target, and you got positive Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) by the time you got into the pit. Still, if you were taxed to bag a target, and the target was bagged, then the mission was a success.

Take success any way you get it; after all, you get blamed for failures that aren't your fault.

..... I think its the first time its happened to me. :icon_bow:

EDIT: Now I think about it I did edit the the package targets and quite possible selected a "dead" target. In fact I was surprised I could do it. As I'm really beta testing AS, I'll deliberately do it again and see what happens.

But what do you think about that wingman fuel flow issue? Any ideas? Can it be fixed? Should it be fixed?

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:ph43r: This could possibly be used as an exploit though, since you could edit the target site and choose an already destroyed building as the target you are responsible for.

It won't help you win the campaign though, just helps you through the ranks with easy points...

True on both counts. Thing is that once I'm in a campaign, I just care about winning the campaign.

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@Wombat,

Not sure what to say about the fuel issue. From what I see, wingmen will burn fuel trying to stay in formation if you are moving around a lot at MIL (100%). For example, if I just hit my target and go home, the fuel burn isn't too bad (assuming no AA engagements; then all bets are off). However, if I spend a lot of time (and multiple passes) vulching aircraft on the ramp, then the wingmens' burn rate goes way up. I'm guessing this is because they're trying to stay in formation as I strafe, extend, rotate in the vertical, then make another pass. Also of note, it's a good idea to put the wingmen in a loose formation (strike loose works well) to minimize this, as well as CFIT (controlled flight into terrain), which wingmen are prone to do when staying in formation during your strafing run.

The only other thing I can think of is if you expend all of your external stores (especially AG, AA doesn't matter as much) and your wingmen don't. Then you will be flying back at MIL and due to the parasitic drag, your wingmen will need to be in AB to keep up. Depending on the tactical situation, it's often a good idea to drop AG stores after you've expended your load, so that the wingmen will do the same and clean up their configuration.

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@Wombat,

Not sure what to say about the fuel issue. From what I see, wingmen will burn fuel trying to stay in formation if you are moving around a lot at MIL (100%). For example, if I just hit my target and go home, the fuel burn isn't too bad (assuming no AA engagements; then all bets are off). However, if I spend a lot of time (and multiple passes) vulching aircraft on the ramp, then the wingmens' burn rate goes way up. I'm guessing this is because they're trying to stay in formation as I strafe, extend, rotate in the vertical, then make another pass. Also of note, it's a good idea to put the wingmen in a loose formation (strike loose works well) to minimize this, as well as CFIT (controlled flight into terrain), which wingmen are prone to do when staying in formation during your strafing run.

The only other thing I can think of is if you expend all of your external stores (especially AG, AA doesn't matter as much) and your wingmen don't. Then you will be flying back at MIL and due to the parasitic drag, your wingmen will need to be in AB to keep up. Depending on the tactical situation, it's often a good idea to drop AG stores after you've expended your load, so that the wingmen will do the same and clean up their configuration.

Thanks. I've attempted to mirror my flight conditions exactly to my wingman to ensure there are no outside influences that affect my wingman and not me. However I'll do some testing based upon your suggestions and some of my own. I assume its not an accessible tweak to the source code so I need to look at the best way to minimize or cover for the problem (eg. position a WP over a friendly airbase to allow for refueling on egress (might have to turn on REARM_WINGMEN again :rolleyes: )). Stay tuned.

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:ph43r: This could possibly be used as an exploit though, since you could edit the target site and choose an already destroyed building as the target you are responsible for.

It won't help you win the campaign though, just helps you through the ranks with easy points...

True on both counts. Thing is that once I'm in a campaign, I just care about winning the campaign.

....in some sense its not necessarily out of order. You could have gained level 5 pilot status prior to enter a new campaign. However my understanding is that you don't carry that status with you to the new campaign which I think is unfortunate and non realistic. Here's a way to address the issue. Or maybe its easier to use the cheat? :unsure:

EDIT: Sorry Eagle. I hope I haven't mis-quoted you with my cutting and pasting. :lol:

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If i remember correctly:

I think the campaign ratings DO get carried over to new campaigns you start, but only on one condition:

The campaign, in which you earn a certain rating, actually gets finished, so it updates your over-all pilot score.

If you start a campaign, earn a 5-star rating, and while mid-campaign - you start a different campaign from the menu, your rank will be what you had before you started the first campaign.

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If i remember correctly:

I think the campaign ratings DO get carried over to new campaigns you start, but only on one condition:

The campaign, in which you earn a certain rating, actually gets finished, so it updates your over-all pilot score.

If you start a campaign, earn a 5-star rating, and while mid-campaign - you start a different campaign from the menu, your rank will be what you had before you started the first campaign.

There is the issue of what I call Pilot Level Status and Mission Level Status

My understanding is I have a Pilot Level 5 Status (which gets me in to all the campaigns, level 1 to 5), but I will have to again build up points to be able to fly greater than level 1 missions in each campaign. My guess its probably 300 points a level. So you need 1500 points to fly level 5 missions. (EDIT: I can now advise its 500 points level 1 to 2, 1500 points level 2 to 3, 5000 points level 3 to 4, and 10 000 points level 4 to 5)

I further understand, once you gained a Mission Level Status in one specific campaign you can transfer that Mission Level Status, less one level, to another campaign using the "_revert pilot level" tool in the TAW2.0 Launcher. For example, if I gain Mission Level 4 Status in winning Avenging Scimitar Campaign(ASC), I can transfer that to another campaign but at Mission Level 3 Status. At this stage I am uncertain on how exactly to do that, so until I have completed ASC successfully, I'm going to "let sleeping dogs lie". Please don't hold your breath while waiting. ;)

My findings have yet to be confirmed.

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I second what Eagle said. You were likely tasked to strike a target, and you got positive Battle Damage Assessment (BDA) by the time you got into the pit. Still, if you were taxed to bag a target, and the target was bagged, then the mission was a success.

Take success any way you get it; after all, you get blamed for failures that aren't your fault.

ItWorks.jpg

I selected targets which had been bagged previously.

Do we record this outcome as a "cheat" somewhere or do we just leave it here for those fortunate/unfortunate enough to read this post ...... ? :unsure:

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Thing is that once I'm in a campaign, I just care about winning the campaign.

I think this is the real issue. We can find ways to increase our points for whatever reason: prestige, flying harder missions, impressing the Brig. Gen., etc. But it won't necessarily win you the campaign. Your role is just a small contribution to the overall outcome, for which you have been privileged to take part in. I've manage to reach level 5 mission status by fair means alone, and that's rewarding enough. But now to win the War ........ that's the real challenge. ;)

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There is the issue of what I call Pilot Level Status and Mission Level Status

My understanding is I have a Pilot Level 5 Status (which gets me in to all the campaigns, level 1 to 5), but I will have to again build up points to be able to fly greater than level 1 missions in each campaign. My guess its probably 300 points a level. So you need 1500 points to fly level 5 missions. (EDIT: I can now advise its 500 points level 1 to 2, 1500 points level 2 to 3, 5000 points level 3 to 4, and 10 000 points level 4 to 5)

Also just from memory:

I think this observation comes from the cheat pilot file. The issue being: the cheat pilot originally has a 5-star rating, but no points to his account. This let's you start any campaign, since the original pilot has the necessary 5-stars - TAW doesn't care about the points at this moment yet. The moment you update the pilot score within a campaign however (by completing a mission), the mission-star-rating gets updated in respect to the new amount of points. - within the campaign only.

I further understand, once you gained a Mission Level Status in one specific campaign you can transfer that Mission Level Status, less one level, to another campaign using the "_revert pilot level" tool in the TAW2.0 Launcher. For example, if I gain Mission Level 4 Status in winning Avenging Scimitar Campaign(ASC), I can transfer that to another campaign but at Mission Level 3 Status. At this stage I am uncertain on how exactly to do that, so until I have completed ASC successfully, I'm going to "let sleeping dogs lie". Please don't hold your breath while waiting. ;)

My findings have yet to be confirmed.

Never heard about the transfer pilot level thingy, but I believe it doesn't work the way you described. Once you finish any campaign, the official pilot score with star-rating and points gets updated with whatever was earned during the campaign.

After completion of a first campaign - now starting a new campaign - I expect you to have the same updated star rating and point count that you had after completing said first campaign. Not one star less, not one point less.

I can imagine, that if you start two campaigns with a pilot score of zero and a 1-star rating, that you would finish one campaign before finishing the other. Here, after completing the first, I expect the over all pilot score to update to reflect the outcome of the first completed campaign. The mid-campaign score and star-rating of the secondly started campaign however should remain indifferent to what happens around it. Then, once the second campaign is also finished, I believe the points gained get added to over all pilot score. I don't think it overwrites the over-all pilot status, but just adds to it as campaigns are completed.

Hope this was all clear enough, not sure if all of it is true though, it's how I have it in memory though..... ^^

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