Jump to content
COMBATSIM Forum

Padlocking Static Targets .......


Wombat1940
 Share

Recommended Posts

1.3 is up, along with another discovery: The shoot list you generate with the cannon/LAU-68 also holds for unguided munitions (e.g. Mk82 bombs). You can't create or edit the shootlist unless cannon/lau-68 is selected, but you can still see the target designators.

gallery_1267_7_40853.png

What's your guys' take on the format for the second page?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 121
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Sorry i'm not talking about the training mission, i mean for simpicity during a real mission where you don't pause......if you just want to find the one with the 'T' on it pretty quick.

Yes I understand. There's no doubt it could/would be different out of the training sphere. The training mission is just to get the basic steps right. in a real mission looking for the "T"'s it'll be different.

Bit like when I did lessons to ride my motorbike: its was on a off-road track learning to corner, brake, counter steer, etc. Then I got on the road and tweaked it all, particularly on cornering where I learned alternatives such as where to start in a corner and vanishing points. It was bringing together all I'd done during training into a manageable package. But I still fall off, as every bikie does. Its inevitable. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.3 is up, along with another discovery: The shoot list you generate with the cannon/LAU-68 also holds for unguided munitions (e.g. Mk82 bombs). You can't create or edit the shootlist unless cannon/lau-68 is selected, but you can still see the target designators.

That's really interesting. I missed that. Must try it.

What's your guys' take on the format for the second page?

I'll test it before your mid-night Sunday dead-line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keilder forest not far from here is a great place for bikers, un-congested open roads, and strangely enough most of the bikers that YES break the speed limit are off-duty policemen!!.......now thats not right is it?? :P....but i'm only saying what others have told me! :P .

80 k's and hour limit on an open beautifully winding road is a joke for a bike. Even 100kph is something most bikies don't follow. Its more like 110 ....120. But you need to do it in the right places. Away from prying eyes. For advisory sign on corners its always 20kmh over. So its 60 with 40 ..... 100 with 80. Its not the straight line speed for me, its gunning it out of corners. I get goosebumps just thinking about it now. Particularly as I just heard an extended interview with Mick Doohan. :rolleyes:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

80 k's and hour limit on an open beautifully winding road is a joke for a bike. Even 100kph is something most bikies don't follow. Its more like 110 ....120. But you need to do it in the right places. Away from prying eyes. For advisory sign on corners its always 20kmh over. So its 60 with 40 ..... 100 with 80. Its not the straight line speed for me, its gunning it out of corners. I get goosebumps just thinking about it now. Particularly as I just heard an extended interview with Mick Doohan. :rolleyes:

Wombat its hard to believe your age, i hope I'm like you at your age, your an icon to live up too!! :thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Be my guest but it should be tested by others first.

Just hold on this for the moment HF. Your routine is making me re-think a number of steps in this mission. I want them both to be compatible and accurate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.3 is up, along with another discovery: The shoot list you generate with the cannon/LAU-68 also holds for unguided munitions (e.g. Mk82 bombs). You can't create or edit the shootlist unless cannon/lau-68 is selected, but you can still see the target designators.

gallery_1267_7_40853.png

What's your guys' take on the format for the second page?

At the moment I'm focusing on the lefthand procedure. The one I didn't want to be acknowledged for. I don't agree with it.

1a. Be consistent: its shootlist or shoot list.

1b. Are we "lasing" or "adding padlocks"? I know in the true sense we're possibly lasing, but the only time you use the word is in the title.

2. "Both the LAU ...... and Cannons can also generate ..... "

3. Can you get the:

STATIC TARGET

Selected ...... on to one line:

STATIC TARGET Selected

4. I'm amazed how much the maverick can aligned to a new target. Its not impossible providing you are not too close (whatever that distance is) and not going too fast. Hence the " ..... will likely cause ....." is a bit over defensive. Maybe use "may" ..... which you might have had originally had.

5. After step 5, this is where we really differ. After "Z, Sing", I hit F1 so as to fly around in the Cockpit View. You make now mention of this. With no disrespect I don't think you've followed my training mission to the letter. Its too much to go into here, but I use an F2 S combination for a reason.

6. At the moment I don't agree there's a need for two distinct procedures: Lasing (to use your word) and Removing. There are not mutually exclusive. I didn't develop two training missions for that reason.

Maybe I'll leave it there. Your requested deadline is not helping in this issue. So if you want to include it in whatever so be it. Just leave me out of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just hold on this for the moment HF. Your routine is making me re-think a number of steps in this mission. I want them both to be compatible and accurate.

No prob, but what I'm really after is whether the format on the second page is fine, or if it needs clarity or tweaking. The accuracy is fine, and due to the nature of a checklist I don't intend to go into much more detail. That detail can go in the Wiki article, which is not under any pressure for release.

I know you want to get everything right, and such attention to detail is admirable. However, I'm on a timetable to release 2.21 before I leave for a couple weeks, and the coded part of the build is all done. There's no point in delaying the release for a technique checklist that can always be updated as a supplemental download.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No prob, but what I'm really after is whether the format on the second page is fine, or if it needs clarity or tweaking. The accuracy is fine, and due to the nature of a checklist I don't intend to go into much more detail. That detail can go in the Wiki article, which is not under any pressure for release.

I know you want to get everything right, and such attention to detail is admirable. However, I'm on a timetable to release 2.21 before I leave for a couple weeks, and the coded part of the build is all done. There's no point in delaying the release for a technique checklist that can always be updated as a supplemental download.

If the deadline is mandatory, then all you say above is fine. But I do question the reality of deadlines if things are wrong or even convoluted. I published 30,000 text books to vouch for that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you there, Wombat. I have a saying "Do it right the first time the only time."

However, there is a big difference from being wrong and not being optimal. I have a code build that is not wrong, seemingly well optimized (months of beta testing), and that also fixes some egregious wrongs with Win98. We also have a checklist and a pending write-up ;) that are correct, yet not optimized. Nothing in best practices that says we can't release now and continue to improve. That's also one of the fundamentals of spiral development as well as good product support.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you there, Wombat. I have a saying "Do it right the first time the only time."

However, there is a big difference from being wrong and not being optimal. I have a code build that is not wrong, seemingly well optimized (months of beta testing), and that also fixes some egregious wrongs with Win98. We also have a checklist and a pending write-up ;) that are correct, yet not optimized. Nothing in best practices that says we can't release now and continue to improve. That's also one of the fundamentals of spiral development as well as good product support.

:thumbsup:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe some things might still need tweaking:

point 9: the warning could/should mention that it's okay to switch to AA weapons, and different huds for example. - just procede with caution when selecting weapons like the AG cannons that share the shoot-list with an active maverick for example.

i feel it might be usefull to know that you can in fact engage bandits that are a threat after you've fired your mav, and you don't have to wait a minute first.

point 10: you don't need to actually always be in padlock view.

you can go F1, and the previously padlocked object will still be padlocked.

views such as F2, F3, and F5 will change your current padlock to your active shoot-list-target, an active threat, or your wingman accordingly.

only F1 and F4 and F9 will maintain your current padlock. (the current padlock might also remain, if you select a view, but no valid object is found, and nothing can get padlocked.)

essentialy i think wombat is right:

the procedure for removing a static target from the shoot-list is ideally:

1. C/X to get the destroyed/unwanted target in your shootlist as the active target.

2. 'F2' to padlock active target, 'S' to remove padlock from shoot-list.

3. (repeat 2 if active target didn't get removed on the first try)

there is no need to use 'Z' to remove them from your shoot-list.

Z will try to cycle through all available static targets.

using F2 + S and C/X, you only need to cycle between the couple of static targets in your shoot-list.

plus you are guaranteed to be able to padlock them easily, sometimes using 'Z' won't show any static targets in visual range, etc.

this trouble can be easily avoided with the 'F2' and 'S', and cycling with C/X through the already created shoot-list.

so i feel kind of bad for suggesting to split up the procedures, i was just thinking of a seperate subtitle.

the situational checklist seems to make it more complicated than it is, and it's asking you to use 'Z' .. dunno why..

otherwise im very gratefull that you work to collect my post and put it in the wiki.. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right, Eagle. C/X is a better choice than Z, then add the F2 step to ensure that the target is padlocked in order to properly remove it. In fact, I like your streamlined, situationally independent way of looking at it. I will make the adjustments.

For most of the points about what you can and cannot do, this is all great stuff for the article. However a checklist is supposed to hit the detailed steps of what you need to do to get from this state to the next state. Stopping ground targeting ops in order to bag bandits is beyond the scope of the checklist, though that information (which I didn't know) is quite valuable. By the same token, you don't need to be in padlock view for step 10, but there's also no reason to take yourself out of padlock view, and it also sets up the simplest way to deselect your target (thereby also making the second page simpler to navigate).

point 10: you don't need to actually always be in padlock view.

you can go F1, and the previously padlocked object will still be padlocked.

views such as F2, F3, and F5 will change your current padlock to your active shoot-list-target, an active threat, or your wingman accordingly.

only F1 and F4 and F9 will maintain your current padlock. (the current padlock might also remain, if you select a view, but no valid object is found, and nothing can get padlocked.)

One question, though: does this mean that if you are in the F1 view and you haven't changed targets, that when you select "S" you will clear the target from the shoot list? I thought you actually had to have the padlock view itself enabled in order to select/deselect targets from your shoot list. I just interpreted things as you are allowed to switch views (i.e. back to F1), and when you hit F2 again you would go back to the same target, at which point you could select/deselect the target to/from your shoot list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right, Eagle. C/X is a better choice than Z, then add the F2 step to ensure that the target is padlocked in order to properly remove it. In fact, I like your streamlined, situationally independent way of looking at it. I will make the adjustments.

Great! :thumbsup: I'm glad you like it and I hope wombat is now also a bit more happy with the checklist..

For most of the points about what you can and cannot do, this is all great stuff for the article. However a checklist is supposed to hit the detailed steps of what you need to do to get from this state to the next state. Stopping ground targeting ops in order to bag bandits is beyond the scope of the checklist, though that information (which I didn't know) is quite valuable.

:) I just thought, that since you went out of your way to mention that one should maintain active AGM-65 lock, it could be overlooked that using other weapons is actually OK. A short mention would make it clear that you have this freedom during this procedure - Right now, the big red warning might frighten you to not switch HUD mode; however, if you could gain a tactical advantage because you have a shot on a bandit, I'd think it'd be totally worth taking the shot, and therefore you stop eyeballing the static target. The buidling isn't going anywhere, however, and it's very easy to use C/X then F2+S afterwards once the situation has calmed down??

I still think is should be noted that you can switch to A2A.

By the same token, you don't need to be in padlock view for step 10, but there's also no reason to take yourself out of padlock view, and it also sets up the simplest way to deselect your target (thereby also making the second page simpler to navigate).

Copy, assuming there are no threat's around, and nothing of importance is going on that you need to pull your attention towards.

One question, though: does this mean that if you are in the F1 view and you haven't changed targets, that when you select "S" you will clear the target from the shoot list? I thought you actually had to have the padlock view itself enabled in order to select/deselect targets from your shoot list. I just interpreted things as you are allowed to switch views (i.e. back to F1), and when you hit F2 again you would go back to the same target, at which point you could select/deselect the target to/from your shoot list.

Exactly. Well, 'S' will try to remove or add whatever is padlocked to the shoot-list. If you went to F1, that didn't change the padlock. So 'S' after F1 will still affect the same padlock you had before going F1. You can change targets with 'C/X' but they will not affect the padlock. Only viewing the active target (with a circle around it) with F2 will set it as the new padlock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Great! :thumbsup: I'm glad you like it and I hope wombat is now also a bit more happy with the checklist..

:) I just thought, that since you went out of your way to mention that one should maintain active AGM-65 lock, it could be overlooked that using other weapons is actually OK. A short mention would make it clear that you have this freedom during this procedure - Right now, the big red warning might frighten you to not switch HUD mode; however, if you could gain a tactical advantage because you have a shot on a bandit, I'd think it'd be totally worth taking the shot, and therefore you stop eyeballing the static target. The buidling isn't going anywhere, however, and it's very easy to use C/X then F2+S afterwards once the situation has calmed down??

I still think is should be noted that you can switch to A2A.

Copy, assuming there are no threat's around, and nothing of importance is going on that you need to pull your attention towards.

Exactly. Well, 'S' will try to remove or add whatever is padlocked to the shoot-list. If you went to F1, that didn't change the padlock. So 'S' after F1 will still affect the same padlock you had before going F1. You can change targets with 'C/X' but they will not affect the padlock. Only viewing the active target (with a circle around it) with F2 will set it as the new padlock.

The HF's set of instructions are not the total picture. S only works on the "eyeballed" target which is sometimes the designated target. Sometimes its not. If not it won't remove anything, it will just add it to your shootlist. Because you've been cycling though all the targets with Z or C (which designates them as you move through) in F1 so it doesn't eyeball them. But F2 is still eyeballing last padlock. Only Z (and please leave that alone) and F2 will do that. That's why in all cases I use the F2 S. Its got the benefit of dropping you back to the F1 view at completion. Sorry this is not explained too well. Go and fly my training mission. PAUSE just as you approach the City. Use Z, S, F2, C/X combinations and you'll see what I mean. Stay in PAUSE and work on the combinations. No need to destroy targets, just practice removing them from your shootlist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The HF's set of instructions are not the total picture. S only works on the "eyeballed" target which is sometimes the designated target. Sometimes its not. If not it won't remove anything, it will just add it to your shootlist. Because you've been cycling though all the targets with Z or C (which designates them as you move through) in F1 so it doesn't eyeball them. But F2 is still eyeballing last padlock. Only Z (and please leave that alone) and F2 will do that. That's why in all cases I use the F2 S. Its got the benefit of dropping you back to the F1 view at completion. Sorry this is not explained too well. Go and fly my training mission. PAUSE just as you approach the City. Use Z, S, F2, C/X combinations and you'll see what I mean. Stay in PAUSE and work on the combinations. No need to destroy targets, just practice removing them from your shootlist.

Hold on a second...

I thought you cycle through the targets in the shoot-list with 'C' and 'X'.

Using 'Z' does actually eyeball the static targets, it not only designates them as the active padlock, but also starts eyeballing and looking at that padlock.. Though 'Z' alone does not add it to the shoot-list, it does padlock through the various available ground buildings.

I think you are correct to use 'F2' and 'S' - And from what I understand from Home Fries' last post - he also agrees, and just has not yet updated the checklist.

I agree that you can cycle through the targets of the shoot-list (C/X) in F1 and it will not eyeball them.

However, F2 will NOT eyeball the last padlock - F2 will eyeball the active shoot-list target. (That we just cycled to with (C/X) for example.)

I also like the benefit of ending up un 'F1' view.

Sorry to keep throwing this back and forth, but I'd really value everyone agreeing so as to also assure myself that I've actually understood it.

I feel there might be a few typos in your above post? I'm pretty confident, we have understood the technique and are now just having difficulty packaging it in the right words. ^^

But I'm going to keep double- and tripple-checking just to make sure it's going to get written down right!

Thanks for your continued support and feedback, Wombat and HomeFries! Getting on each-others nerves is probably somewhat inevitable and to a certain extent harmful to our discussion here, so please don't be annoyed by me nagging on about the right terminoligy or the accurate keyboard presses.

I hope that this will benefit all of us and we will just remember the great practicality of this technique, and not so much the tedious and frustrating time it took to get it perfected. ^^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hold on a second...

The HF's set of instructions are not the total picture. S only works on the "eyeballed" target which is sometimes the designated target. Sometimes its not. If not it won't remove anything, it will just add it to your shootlist. Because you've been cycling though all the targets with X or C (which designates them as you move through) in F1 so it doesn't eyeball them. But F2 is still eyeballing last padlock. Only Z (and please leave that alone) and F2 will do that. That's why in all cases I use the F2 S. Its got the benefit of dropping you back to the F1 view at completion. Sorry this is not explained too well. Go and fly my training mission. PAUSE just as you approach the City. Use Z, S, F2, C/X combinations and you'll see what I mean. Stay in PAUSE and work on the combinations. No need to destroy targets, just practice removing them from your shootlist.

I thought you cycle through the targets in the shoot-list with 'C' and 'X'.

Using 'Z' does actually eyeball the static targets, it not only designates them as the active padlock, but also starts eyeballing and looking at that padlock.. Though 'Z' alone does not add it to the shoot-list, it does padlock through the various available ground buildings.

Sorry ....pushed the wrong key ... they're close. ....meant to be X or C. I've edited my original post.

I think you are correct to use 'F2' and 'S' - And from what I understand from Home Fries' last post - he also agrees, and just has not yet updated the checklist.

I agree that you can cycle through the targets of the shoot-list (C/X) in F1 and it will not eyeball them.

I agree.

However, F2 will NOT eyeball the last padlock - F2 will eyeball the active shoot-list target. (That we just cycled to with (C/X) for example.)

Not sure I understand this. I just don't use the F2 key in isolation. My current "combinations" are: Z, S, F1, C or X and F2+S. They meet all my needs.

Z to eyeball it.

S to add it to my shootlist.

F1 to return to the normal cockpit view.

C or X to cycle through my shootlist's padlocked targets while in the normal cockpit view.

F2+S to remove the currently the eyeballed target, providing I haven't cycled to it with X or C. This F2+S combination returns me to the F1 view.

If I have cycled to an alternative padlocked target with X or C, I eyeball it with F2+S and then remove it with F2+S again.

I don't use separate F2 and S actuation to remove targets as its simpler to program my 'stick with Z, S, C and F2+S.

I also like the benefit of ending up un 'F1' view.

Sorry to keep throwing this back and forth, but I'd really value everyone agreeing so as to also assure myself that I've actually understood it.

I feel there might be a few typos in your above post? I'm pretty confident, we have understood the technique and are now just having difficulty packaging it in the right words. ^^

But I'm going to keep double- and tripple-checking just to make sure it's going to get written down right!

Thanks for your continued support and feedback, Wombat and HomeFries! Getting on each-others nerves is probably somewhat inevitable and to a certain extent harmful to our discussion here, so please don't be annoyed by me nagging on about the right terminoligy or the accurate keyboard presses.

I hope that this will benefit all of us and we will just remember the great practicality of this technique, and not so much the tedious and frustrating time it took to get it perfected. ^^

I love you nagging away. That's how we've got this far. In truth the double use of S for cycled targets does seem strange. Although I think your earlier sequencing post does cover it. But the important thing here is the acceptance of the F2+S combination and not just S to remove static targets from the shootlist which is my major concern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love you nagging away. That's how we've got this far. In truth the double use of S for cycled targets does seem strange. Although I think your earlier sequencing post does cover it. But the important thing here is the acceptance of the F2+S combination and not just S to remove static targets from the shootlist which is my major concern.

Great! :)

I agree, for simplicity's sake, mapping "F2 + S" to a joystick button is the way to go to easily remove the active shoot-list target.

If it doesn't work the first time around, just using "F2 + S" a second time will always work.

The idea is that 'F2' isolated also has it's use, but for removing targets from the shootlist, the easiest is to go 'F2 + S'.

I will also try to update my button layout - I already have 'F2' and 'C/X' mapped though, and I use 'F2' alot in may other occasions..

For me - since I have limited joystick buttons - I might have to rearrange my layout a bit.. But in any case, I think we've got the deal more or less wrapped up! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...