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HAWX and stuff...


SeriousToni
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Hey Wingmen,

as I start to play this game every 5 years all over since the past 20 years but never had (will have) "the balls" to join you on a real multiplayer session I wanted to ask if you tried out some new stuff from the game market?

I can imagine that nowadays there's nothing like a real flight simulator with a manual and things you'll have to learn and everything feels more like an action movie (interactive) but still the question: Did you try out some newer flight games, like HAWX and stuff..??

Maybe there's some good stuff in there and maybe there are some silly things that happend to you and maybe even you have to talk about some things that are really getting on your nerves... but tell me! I'm open for this :)

tom_clancy_hawx_exclusive_screen_2.jpg

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Yes we are playing DCSW a lot these days.. but would love to have you come for a flight in TAW sometime hopefully soon.. Don't feel intimidated we will help and get you all setup for online play..

Whilst anyflying game could be cool I prefer a more demanding flight game.. I prefer flight sims like F4 BMS and DCSW along with TAW and EF2000..

Heck I used to fly an older sim that was an arcade classic but I liked it.. as long as you enjoy it it is all good..

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I loved Ace Combat 1–7, which were pure arcade. Ace Combat Squadron Leader (A.K.A. The Unsung War) has a fantastic storyline and is one of the best games I ever played. I hated Ace Combat 3 when it was released, but nowadays I must admit it was revolutionary.

None of EF 2000's / TAW's strengths (realism, tactics, dynamic campaigns, stealth) can be found in Ace Combat, and none of Ace Combat's strengths (great storyline, emotion, dedication to characters and moods, rapidly different locations) can be found in EF2000 / TAW. They complement each other very well.

This video sums up pretty well what AC is for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icm19eT_Tvo

Pure fiction, but AWESOME entertainment; and you can't compare it at all to TAW. Love to play both :)

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Great thread and nice redirect :) .

There was a game back in the 90s that I loved called Strike Commander. I enjoyed it for its pseudo-realism, in that you actually had to have the target in front of you to see the radar contact, you could use the joystick to pan (like Red Baron), and you didn't have 50 AMRAAMs. Nobody would mistake it for Falcon 3.0, but it had the Chris Roberts storyline to go with the great (at the time) graphics and gameplay.

This brings up an idea: with the DCS mission editor, there's no reason we can't do a story based campaign for DCS World. We won't be able to incorporate videos, but we could certainly trigger voice comms and events in the mission editor. You won't have a cutscene to tell you when something big happens, but you'll know it and see what you would actually see from your cockpit (and hear the rest). With FC3 and a similar "mercenary" theme (or an Ace Combat theme if you will) you could incorporate a campaign involving different aircraft for different missions, doing everything from CAS with the A-10A (or even C) and intercepts with the Su-27. It's even possible to create a mission that gives you the option of which aircraft to fly in a scenario (i.e. same mission but you could either fly the CAS role with the A-10 or the CAP role with the F-15C). A branching campaign tree is also possible with the campaign editor, so a loss of a mission could put you down the B track that makes you either have to do something to get back on A, or you must complete B with fewer resources and more difficult missions.

The only thing is that the missions would have to be realistic within the framework of DCS, which means that you won't be in a F-15C facing down legions of MiG-29s. They will have to be realistic engagements; they can be difficult, but they have to be winnable.

I don't have the time to do the campaign/mission design from the ground up, but I will gladly take someone's framework and incorporate it into the mission/campaign editor. I can even make the missions multiplayer if desired. One thought, though: a Mercenary style campaign with the Black Veal Squadron would be fun, and we already have the personalized skins and voice actors handy. :icon_rock:

The ball is now in your collective courts!

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Yes we are playing DCSW a lot these days.. but would love to have you come for a flight in TAW sometime hopefully soon.. Don't feel intimidated we will help and get you all setup for online play..

Whilst anyflying game could be cool I prefer a more demanding flight game.. I prefer flight sims like F4 BMS and DCSW along with TAW and EF2000..

Heck I used to fly an older sim that was an arcade classic but I liked it.. as long as you enjoy it it is all good..

If you are thinking of MP flight sim I'd support Neph in his recommendation: TAW2.0. Its free, its downloadable, it not as hard as DCS or BMS, but has a realistic touch that HAW2 and Ace Combat do not have. There isn't a plot, but any replayed mission can throw up different scenarios. Take me for instance, Wombat, successfully takes off rather than taxiing into a hanger, which is what I normally do, :blush: the whole mission changes. Try it in SP. See what you think.

EDIT: To really get value you'll need to have a joystick with analogue (X,Y, throttle and trigger) controls as a minimum. Everything else can be achieved through a keyboard.

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I loved Ace Combat 1–7, which were pure arcade. Ace Combat Squadron Leader (A.K.A. The Unsung War) has a fantastic storyline and is one of the best games I ever played. I hated Ace Combat 3 when it was released, but nowadays I must admit it was revolutionary.

None of EF 2000's / TAW's strengths (realism, tactics, dynamic campaigns, stealth) can be found in Ace Combat, and none of Ace Combat's strengths (great storyline, emotion, dedication to characters and moods, rapidly different locations) can be found in EF2000 / TAW. They complement each other very well.

This video sums up pretty well what AC is for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icm19eT_Tvo

Pure fiction, but AWESOME entertainment; and you can't compare it at all to TAW. Love to play both :)

The only Ace Combat for PC's appears to be: Ace Combat: Assault Horizons. Is this true and is it any good? Thanks.

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I'd like to join you on multiplayer in TAW 2 but I really need to get into the game again first with some of the tutorials ;)

About this DCS World.. So you can play as a helicotper and a tank? But there's nothing like an F22 in it, is it? Maybe the SU 35?

Does this have a tutorial section on how to play like in F22 TAW? And is there a video showing the features of the game that is NOT played in a helicopter?? :D

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Think of DCS World as a simulation engine in which software developers can add aircraft to fly. There's no F-22 right now, but there will be in a few years. It's a complicated system to model, so developers are starting with simpler aircraft.

Right now the flyable aircraft are:

  • Su-25T (comes for free with DCS World)
  • A-10A (Flaming Cliffs 3 or individual purchase)
  • A-10C

  • F-15C (FC3 and individual purchase by end of November)

  • Ka-50 Black Shark (the Russian attack helo you likely saw)

  • Mi-8 Hip helicopter

  • MiG-29A/C/G (All 3 variants as part of FC3)

  • P-51D Mustang

  • Su-25A (FC3 or individual purchase)

  • Su-27 Flanker (FC3)

  • Su-33 Flanker D (FC3)

  • UH-1H "Huey"

And in development (there are more, but I'm only listing mature development at this time):

  • AV-8B Harrier
  • Bf-109
  • F-15E
  • F/A-18C
  • F/A-18E
  • FW-190D
  • BAE Hawk
  • MiG-21
  • P-47 Thunderbolt

  • Spitfire

  • T-2

  • T-6

As you mentioned, there is also Combined Arms, which allows you to control ground units and also give them orders like a complicated RTS.

Here's a list of stuff in game/in development that is much more in depth than what I just rattled off the top of my head.

None of these are "hop in and go" aircraft, though the Su-25T and FC3 birds have a much easier learning curve than the others. The others are modeled about as faithfully as the real aircraft, down to using every button, switch and knob. Some of the aircraft may be easier to fly, but none of them are easy to fight. DCS World is on the opposite side of the difficulty/realism scale from Ace Combat, and has more in common with Falcon BMS than anything else. This is a double edged sword, but it makes the in-game accomplishments that much worthwhile (i.e. you have to work for a single kill) and ensures that the game will stay on your hard drive for years to come!

Finally, some great videos:

"Anthology"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIjTbqK7HMY

A-10C Warthog (this shows off multiplayer as well as the A-10)

http://youtu.be/aZN_j1UJtgY

F-15C Eagle (multiplayer dogfighting and formation flying)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmKqstMu0rM

Su-27 flying around at low level

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_UI6PDcXe0

UH-1 (this one I like because it uses my skins :icon_rock: )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aCMr7X8WFKs

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Getting to the question about tutorials, the "DCS" level planes* have outstanding fully interactive tutorials that highlight the switches you should be pressing and walk you through what you're supposed to do to employ the systems. The Su-25T now also has these tutorials (though they just tell you the keys to press since the Su-25T doesn't have a clickable cockpit) so you can get a feel (for free) of what is expected.

Flaming Cliffs 3 has videos you can download that are captures from Flaming Cliffs 2 tutorial missions. Not interactive, and slightly dated, but they work well to cover the systems. Since FC3 systems are simplified when compared to DCS level systems, this is sufficient. I have also uploaded Ironhand's Lock On and Su-25T videos (formatted for DCS World) to LOF. You can watch them in any viewer that supports ogg vorbis video format (OGV).

* Black Shark 2 has video captures from Black Shark 1, but this is the exception to the "DCS level" rule. There are some interactive BS2 training missions by BigfootMSR available for download as well.

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That actually requires a complicated answer:

Assuming we're talking about FC3 level aircraft (including the Su-25T), the level of complexity isn't that much more than TAW. You have keyboard commands for everything, you can fly knowing the basics, and you don't have to worry about looking at different MFDs to do everything like TAW. However, the flight model is more complex and you won't be able to just pull the stick into your lap in order to do a tight turn. You really have to pay attention to angle of attack (tighter the turn, the higher the AOA and closer you are to stall), and stalling at an unusual altitude (i.e. tight turn that goes over your max AOA) may cause bad things to happen like inverted spins. Of course, that's part of the fun is learning how to fly the plane, and knowing what you can and can't do.

The other part is fighting the plane. This is definitely a lot harder than TAW because you don't have the same sensor integration as you have in the F-22. You will need to navigate using analog instruments like a HSI (and a heading tape on your HUD), though the route autopilot mode (on everything except the Su-25A and A-10A) can help you with this. You will need to manually bug your targets (no hitting "T" and getting the 10 highest priority targets in a shootlist), and you need to fly proper F-Pole/A-Pole tactics against capable interceptors. Of course, you don't face 30 aircraft in a mission like you might in TAW, so that evens things out a bit.

Now if you go with DCS level aircraft like the A-10C, Ka-50, or UH-1, then you're talking Falcon 4.0/BMS level fidelity of starting the aircraft from a cold start, learining how to use the avionics (like the CDU modeled after the real thing in the A-10C), and basically flipping every switch and pushing every button a real pilot would use in the aircraft.

My recommendation is to find a copy of Lock On: Modern Air Combat. The game came out in the mid 2000s and includes the same aircraft available in FC3. Don't worry about the missions or campaigns, but if you enjoy flying the aircraft you'll enjoy FC3 and DCS World. If not, then it's probably not your cup of tea. Besides, if you like it, you need a copy of Lock On in order to install FC3 anyway, so that gets you ahead of the curve.

If you want to try DCS World for free you can do that as well (and you get the Su-25T), but the Su-25T (though a capable plane) is difficult to fly and even harder to fight. If you like fast movers and tight turners, you may lose your patience with the Su-25T, whereas Lock On aircraft are a mix of fighters and attack jets.

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If I might just throw in my 2c worth having just bought and "enjoying" Ace Combat - Assault Horizon (ACAH).

The leap from ACAH to DCS is huge. There're really different animals other than they centre around fighter aircraft. I've just been playing ACAH for a couple of novice level hours. I have hundreds of kills and dozen of deaths. Its fun, sit on the couch while watching TV kind of stuff. I also have DCS which I find very challenging even to locking up a target let alone shoot it down. :lol: Its demanding but extremely rewarding providing you are prepared to put the time in. The compromise is TAW2.0. Its still challenging, but the outcomes are more easily reached. You can climb into the cockpit, taxi to the runway and take-off without too much trouble. But to deploy the right weapon, remain stealthy, learn how to avoid missiles, return safely to base upon completing a mission; it takes training and MP help from the real ace TAW F22 pilots. Those same pilots are now flying with DCS, but are alway more than happy to fly TAW2.0 because it still has its own special rewards.

If anyone is thinking of DCS with only a ACAH type background I would strongly suggest undertaking TAW2.0 first. IMHO, ACAH to DCS is a bit like asking a baby to run before it can walk. You might even find while learning to walk (with TAW2.0) that you prefer crawling (with ACAH) and have no wish to learn to run (with DCS). ;)

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Basically I looked for a better looking (more modern) F22 :D

But I guess your hint with Lock on is good, maybe. But I'm confused wich game I need to buy. There seems to be the original game, an addon and some other version of this (?)

Is this the right version, or which is the best?

http://www.amazon.de/Lock-On-Air-combat-Simulation/dp/B00005V7DW/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1385132683&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=lock+on+modern+air+combat+gold

I also like your idea of playing F22 in multiplayer, but as I said I don't have the time at the moment :( I think it's difficult because I'm from Germany and you're from Australia (Time Zones) :o

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Yes, that is the right version, but the standard version is expensive. I wouldn't pay 60 euros for Lock On; that's more than FC3 costs at retail. I know in the USA we can get Lock On for $10 directly from Ubisoft as a download, so you want to explore options in that price range. The Green Pepper or Ubisoft exclusive versions look fine, and I would go with a used copy. The manual is a PDF no matter how you buy it, and you only need the Lock On registry entries on your system to install FC3. Also, don't buy the add-on. If this version comes with the Add-on (Flaming Cliffs 1), only install Lock On and don't install the add-on. FC1 uses an older version of Starforce that doesn't like newer operating systems; Lock On when patched to 1.0.2 doesn't even require the CD. You don't need FC1, and you only need the original Lock On to install FC3. It is confusing, but this is part of Eagle Dynamics separating their line from Ubisoft.

Another really good deal there is the Fighter Collection 1 for 10 euro. That includes Enemy Engaged 2, which is a good TAW-level helicopter sim, Ka-50 Black Shark, which is a first gen full DCS sim*, and A-10C Warthog, the serial for which you can also use to unlock the A-10C in DCS World. The Ka-50 and A-10C are the very high level sims. With Wombat's analogy of crawling to running, these are running a marathon. But for the price they'll be ready for you when you're ready for them! :thumbsup:

* This version of Ka-50 Black Shark is standalone and not DCS World compatible, but with it you are eligible for an upgrade price for Black Shark 2 (which does work in DCS World).

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Just make sure you are patched up to 1.02; anything 1.1 or above is the FC1 add-on. Honestly, though, you can get a feel for the game with 1.0 and you'll know whether you want DCS World.

Like I said previously, don't worry about the included missions or campaigns (most of them are awful). Don't sweat the graphics either (they were state of the art in 2005, but pale when compared to DCS World). What you're evaluating is whether you actually like flying and fighting the aircraft.

There are two ways to go about this:

  • Play with the mission editor. Start with something like the Su-27 or MiG-29 at an airfield and give it some waypoints (these planes are great because they have a display that shows the overhead navigation route). Fly around, getting to know how the plane flies. At some point, add a tanker or slow, unmaneuvering aircraft to the mission and shoot it down so you can learn the weapons and cannon. Don't try to take on a 5th gen fighter just yet; you will likely get your clock cleaned if you're not familiar with the aircraft.

  • Pick an aircraft and go through the training missions. These are scripted tracks that show you how to do things, but you can use a hotkey to take control at any time. Get some familiarity with the keystrokes, then try the instant action.

Any combination of the above will get you there, though I like the first alternative because I have fun just flying the planes themselves. However, when it comes time to start shooting things down, the tutorials are necessary. In either case, don't be dismayed if you have trouble shooting something down. I was a professional aviator, and it took me a month in Flanker 2.0 to get a guns kill on another high end fighter).

As for a Lock On forum here, there is a Su-27/Flanker forum, and Lock On is a follow-on to Flanker 2.0 (it was originally supposed to be called Flanker: Attack). There is also a DCS World forum, which The Dude added within the past year. If you have any Lock On specific questions, please feel free to ask in the DCS World forum; the questions and answers will likely translate to DCS World/FC3 as well.

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Okay thanks for the help again! I will patch it to 1.02 and try the tutorials when I have some more spare time. Oh dear am I excited now ^_^

EDIT: And YEEES I will wrap my head around the new graphics - because all I saw in my life was F22 graphics - so I am even more excited of the newer looking game here :P

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