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Luthier speaks out on Pacific Fighters


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Hot of the pit.

luthier1

PTO Crew Chief

Posted Thu September 15 2005 14:20

Cell phones??? Where'd that come from? I'm happily working on three new add-ons for the game, plus I'm in the early stages of planning something even bigger.

Regarding adding free things to PF, all of the new Pacific content added in post-release patches was produced by me. A few more planes and cockpits have already been completed and will be released in the near future, and the plans don't stop there.

Most of it is centered around new aircraft though. New ships - I seriously doubt you'll see any new Allied ships, because every single one we've looked at is under copyright by big aerospace companies, who ask for an ungodly amounts to license their likeness. Japanese ships - honestly not very likely either, mostly because to me new planes are more important, and if I have to dedicate my very limited resources to something I'd rather build a new cockpit than a new ship. It's a flight sim after all, and I'd much rather bomb an old ship in a new plane, than a new ship in an old plane.

Maps - you will see new ones, and the Philipinnes (Luzon / Bataan) will be the first. Solomons? We have Guadalcanal already. The Solomons are so large we can't possibly fit anything playable on a single map. Even the nearest US and Japanese bases were so far apart that only one side can be represented on a map. If we build Bougainville or, I don't know, Rabaul or what have you, the Allies will be airstarting all their missions. We have so many one-sided airstart missions already, I think the focus should be on the historical areas where both sides had equal presence. I hate to keep shortchanging one side or the other in all the campaigns.

In any case, Pacific is not dead, and neither am I. I've just became extremely allergic to the forums in the pre-release days, and I still haven't gotten over it.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc.../8611070753/p/1

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Both sides equally represented? I hate to burst anyone's bubble but the Pacific war was anything but equal, from Pearl Harbor until Guadalcanal it was Japan romping over everyone they saw, from Guadalcanal until the end of the war it was the US romping all over every Jap they saw. It wasn't a fair and balanced war at all except for a few months over the Solomons, so if he wants to make a place where both sides are on the map somewhere and both sides have both offensive and defensive missions then the Slot is the one place where that happened.

We already have Guadalcanal? Yeah, in the Northeast corner of the friggin' map. If it were in the Southeast then maybe we couldn't get the full Slot on but there were plenty of other islands to the NW of Guadalcanal that were heavilly fought over aside from Rabaul.

Time for some Luthier Logic here:

It's a flight sim after all, and I'd much rather bomb an old ship in a new plane, than a new ship in an old plane.

It's a Pacific sim after all, and I'd much rather airstart on of an important map where real things happened in the war, than fly from base to strike and back to land on some insignificant little pissant rock that was fought over for all of 3 days out of the entire war.

Okay now if I read this thing right the reason we can't have more new ships is because the big aerospace companies own them and it'd cost money to license them...but he's going to be adding new planes? Hmmm, call me crazy but I'd think that a big aerospace company would want more money for...let me think here...ummm planes? So either they're going to pony up the cash to get said planes in or more likely they'll either:

1) Add in more Japanese planes since their companies don't license the way Western companies do. And I thought they wanted balance... <_<

2) We'll see more planes like the Demon which had a huge role in the war in general and the Pacific in particuliar. Woot, bring on that Brewster SB2A baby! :rolleyes:

3) We'll see Japanese skins for some Bf-109s because everyone knows that they fought in the Pacific! US pilots reported shooting them down in the Solomons all the time! :blink:

4) Hey China's in Asia, and Asia's the Pacific right? The Russians played a vital role in the defeat of Japan ya know, so all of those Soviet rides are really Pacific planes too. I mean who can forget the massed Tu-2 raids on Tokyo right? Right?? Ummm guys? :unsure:

If I were a betting man I'd guess a combo of all of the above...well maybe not 3 but I wouldn't put anything past them. The one we all want would be:

5) We're falling on our swords, admitting we screwed up and are making sure it's okay to add in US planes without causing anymore "legal problems" and you'll soon see an Avenger, Helldiver (eww), Devastator and F4U-4 Corsair. If we can manage it we'll even add in Bearcats and Tigercats!

Number 5 is about as likely to happen as me winning Nice Guy of the Year but hey anything can happen I suppose...

Luthier may not be dead, but like Fredo he's dead to me. I'm really beginning to think that the last time any of the people working on Pacific Fighters had a clue was when the doctor smacked them on their asses on their first day on this crazy planet.

Sh!t, there goes my Nice Guy of the Year Award...

:ph43r:

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Well, if you're out of the running for Nice Guy of the Year . . .

. . . does that mean I have a chance?

I haven't posted a rant about PF. Does that count in my favor?

Course, I don't own it. That probably eliminates me from contention, huh?

:P

Jim

PS: It's only a game. (I think some French general said that.)

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Well, if you're out of the running for Nice Guy of the Year . . .

. . . does that mean I have a chance?

I haven't posted a rant about PF.  Does that count in my favor?

Course, I don't own it.  That probably eliminates me from contention, huh?

:P

Jim

PS: It's only a game.  (I think some French general said that.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah you're still in the running.

And it is only a game, unfortunately it's the only Pacific game that's come out in years and since we're into the Pacific...well it's the only game in town. Which means it gets more than its fair share of commentary.

Unfortunately, I'm not in the anything is better than nothing camp anymore.

That wasn't a rant either Jim, that was mild criticism, if I wanted to rant about it then Doug would have to pass out fireproof suits and sunglasses. ;)

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As pointed out in that thread, new ships don't have to be exact replicas of the real ships. How hard would it be to create some more or less generic destroyers, battle ships, and carriers? How many people would really know a generic battleship filling the place of the Missouri from an precise replica of the Missouri from 4000 feet up in the air? I would surely settle for reasonably close, but not perfect. We'll see what we get in the coming months, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for any American planes or ships.

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Rick, that award went out the window for you the day the doctor smacked your ass on YOUR first day on this planet.

Pointless to go into this again, but here goes. We aint getting jack from them on the Pac except what you're probably talking about, the 138th version of the Yak-9 Mod A.4-5763J.1-TOB-58321.

Phillipines. OK, nice but the Solomons is where most of the war, the struggle, took place. Airstart me near Rabaul. Airstart me over Bougainville. PLEASE.

It's a big freaking ocean. You can't truly simulate a Pacific Flight Sim without simulating a freaking navy. Regardless of what country it's from.

Pointless post from him in my honest opinion.

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Ok so their map engine limits the size of a mission...

I'd be ok with making the maps 1/2 scale to fit them in. It would avoid the need to write off your whole day to play it too...since a real mission could take you several hours at full scale.

Half scale will still correspond visually with a real world map.

In fact if the map program ever goes open source...half scale maps would be a great thing to crank out since Oleg ain't going to do it because it is not realistic (but airstarts are?).

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Most of Guadalcanal north of the ridgelines in the game is flat, open terrain without jungle or even sawgrass. Alligator Creek and the Lunga are as wide as the Volga. Joker had to add in the Pagoda.

Just for starters.

100% accurate my hiney.

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Most of Guadalcanal north of the ridgelines in the game is flat, open terrain without jungle or even sawgrass. Alligator Creek and the Lunga are as wide as the Volga. Joker had to add in the Pagoda.

Just for starters.

100% accurate my hiney.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's more, Henderson is too far west or east -- can't recall exactly which, at the moment. Last year, when I matched the PF map up against actual maps, I found that the creek that should border the east side of the base was either too far west or too far east. Wish I could remember which one. Anyway, basically the scale of the whole base looks out of whack. Not to mention the fact that the landing strips look nothing as they did historically. Nor are both strips located correctly within the perimeter. This would be a whole lot easier to take if the map was part of a usable Solomons chain, which it isn't. Bah, Luthier ... <_<

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Okay you wanted conspiracy theories, here's a conspiracy theory for you...

Maybe their lack of cartographical skills are part of the reason why they're so adament about staying on the Eastern Front, think about it, all maps in the Soviet Union were <<CLASSIFIED>> and were illegal for people to own. Not just maps which would have classified military information on them but maps just showing geographical features were classified. So the only real good maps that "real people" have are post-Soviet ones, which would be far different from how the terrain was 65 years ago. So if no "real people" can look at a real Soviet era map, then they can't complain about accuracy right?

Now the reason for the quotes around "real people" is that Oleg probably has whole steamer trunks of Soviet WWII archival maps of the USSR, but your average fan of the game probably only has maps that were available in history books. Those are based on German maps which had to be made whole cloth during the invasion. So when someone says there's an inacuracy with Russian terrain in the game based on the maps they have in their history books then Oleg and Co. can say,"German maps weren't accurate." Even if they were accurate and Oleg and Co. made a mistake they can use the Soviet map argument and sound like they're in the right.

Now for the other non-USSR areas of Central Europe where there are WWII era maps available they can flip the argument to say that the German/Hungarian/Whatever maps were inaccurate because they were working on Soviet maps which showed the area as it was when Soviet troops were operating in the area not as shown in the 1934 Rand McNally, for example. So it's win-win for them.

With the Pacific though neither side had classified maps, I mean there were maps with things on them like airbases, troop dispositions, etc. that were classified but the geography of the area itself was known by all sides. Maybe not in great detail (B-17s had to do photomapping of Guadalcanal before the Marines could land since the maps were out of date, and then the photomap was lost somewhere in New Zealand when the Marines went through the Shoestring Loading Debacle) but they knew where the mountains were, where the coastlines, etc. Moreover everything was extensively mapped by engineers on both sides during the war and all of those maps are declassified and have been available to us since shortly after the war ended. So they can't fall back on the "We Have Maps You Can't Have" argument...

...which makes me wonder if Ian Boys' "no interest in the Pacific" has less to do with no interest at all, but more the fact that there are people out there (like at least 4 of us right here in this thread) that could probably do a pretty good map of Guadacanal from memory and would be able to (and have) call Maddox on inaccuracies in the maps.

How's that for a whacky conspiracy theory. All it needs is the Smoking Man...oops I was smoking when I typed it. Okay so it's an Official Conspiracy Theory now. Can I get a harumph? ;)

Oh and by the way Luthier and Oleg and Co...there really were railroads in the Pacific Theatre too, but not in Oleg World. :P

I feel better now. Kinda. :D

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Someone needs to send him a book about the 'Canal. There were seven, repeat, seven distinct naval actions that centered around the control of the Solomons, and only three were purely naval actions. That's not counting the times that carrier and land based air had to destroy landing barges, troop ships, and troop destroyers, not to mention the 3 carrier actions. I head to the library about once every ten years, and pull out a couple of books (damned if I can remember the name right now) and read up on them. Simply put, the struggle to control the Solomon Islands was the most pivotal actions of the Pacific war, second only to Midway.

Boats

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Oleg was offered lots of information and it would have cost him zilch. There are actually tons of people in the community, both here, in the pit, and at the other sim site that are eager and ready to help with maps, weapons, aircraft, and campaigns. They are rebuffed. Unfortunately, even though Luthier's post is full of promises (like any politician or snake oil salesman), the take home message is that it is the Pacific and this is the best that's on the market now, be happy with what we gave you, now go away and maybe we'll through you a scrap from the table.

I wish Oleg would license Pacific Fighters add ons to third party developers. Luthier is screaming that it costs money to add anything to IL2. If that is so, then how did the CFS 1% team manage to build scads and scads of new flight and damage models as well as release new planes without charging a penny? Because third party groups are often aviation and history enthusiasts who look upon such projects as a labor of love, not a job. Unfortunately for us, if third parties were allowed to work on Pacific Fighters, it would end up being a totally different game than what we currently have and that would make Oleg look more like a MicroSoft of the sim world. Basically, an everlasting know it all who doesn't no $hit from shine-ola.

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Same stuff happened with Boost Override and fully controllable flaps for the Hurricane. I actually posted the relevant pages of the pilot's manual in Oleg's Ready Room. Oleg asked me to supply him with the manual, and I asked where he wanted me to send it. Nothing since.

What he needed to know was already posted on the forum, but he wouldn't even use that. <_<

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What he needed to know was already posted on the forum, but he wouldn't even use that.

Maybe he just doesn't want to use all this free and accurate information. Maybe it doesn't jibe with his perception of the war and the weapons? It is incredible the amount of free help that has been offered, and turned down!!!! You look at EAW, CFS, Strike Fighters and see that when accurate information is offered, it is generally gladly accepted and used. Last time I was offered free help was the day I was changing the light bulbs in the motion detector light on my house. I gladly accepted my neighbor's offer to steady the ladder for me. I guess if I was Oleg I would turn down the offer, rebuke my neighbor and then be happy I had fallen two stories with no help. :wacko:

Maybe it's a communist thing and I just don't understand. <_<

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Maybe it's cuz Oleg was educated in the Soviet Union, and what he was taught in history class doesn't jive with what the west says. So he feels that we are all wrong.

"Please do not beat me for defending Oleg. I don't give a rats ass for Oleg or his followers in the Gulag. Just throwing out an opinion. Probably not correct, but hey."

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