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Army still won't back away from the 5.56mm poodle shooter


Donster

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Personally, I like the heavier 7.62 myself. But then again, that's just me. Hell, I prefer the .45 and had a fit when the Corps took mine from me.

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All that money spent in R&D on the 6.8mm round goes down the toilet. :angry:

Ah,yes indeed! I wonder whos district the gun and ammo is made in? Me,cynical,naaaaaah! :rolleyes:

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U.S. Army Says 5.56mm Is Adequate

What is your take on the CFran?

whats my take? with the rounds we currently have, id take 7.62 over 5.56 anyday.. take a gander here, with proper modifications an M14 (SOPMOD) was a few inches shorter than an M4 and had exceptional range and stopping power.

weapon-M14%20SOPMOD-3.jpg

If i had the choice for a new "light weight" round i wouldnt mind the 5.7x28 like in a P90 damn that round kicks ASS!

btw I dont want to hear the whiny babies of todays "ARMY of ONE" complaining about weight issues .. I carried an M-14 w Leupold 10X40 LR/T M1 or Aimpoint (depending on mission CQC (aka Patrol) or Sniper Ops) and in the truck I had an M16A4 w/ACOG as my "backup" my combat load was 270rds 5.56 (4 mags in a drop leg, 1 mag in the Stock Pouch remaining 5 mags dispersed on my IBA) and 135 rds 7.62 (4 mags stuffed into a 100 rd SAW Pouch, 1 mag in a stock pouch) 2 Frag Grenades, 1 Sig Flare, Binos, Motorola Comm, and IBA vest w/plates, 2 sets handcuffs and for raids 1 breeching tomahawk/mini halligan tool and if i felt like actually bringing it the P.O.S 9mm Barretta. I figure i was carrying roughly 50-60% of my total body weight.

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Agree, the 7.62 NATO is a superior round and these new versions of the M14 seem rather handy. Maybe not the ideal weapon for house clearing, but a fine compromise between close quarters and battlefield rifle and more than enough oomph at longer ranges.

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Agree, the 7.62 NATO is a superior round and these new versions of the M14 seem rather handy. Maybe not the ideal weapon for house clearing, but a fine compromise between close quarters and battlefield rifle and more than enough oomph at longer ranges.

I wouldnt say new bro .. my M14 was most likely Nam vintage, only thing new on it was stock and maybe the springs, but other than that it probably came straight out of a museum! :lol:

that SOPMOD stock is a straight up drop in MOD from Fulton Armory. Those guys have a fine collection of M1A and M14 parts and mods. take a look at thier site when you can. If it wasnt for the riduculous gun laws going around here in NY id have an M1A by now.

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I wouldnt say new bro .. my M14 was most likely Nam vintage, only thing new on it was stock and maybe the springs, but other than that it probably came straight out of a museum! :lol:

that SOPMOD stock is a straight up drop in MOD from Fulton Armory. Those guys have a fine collection of M1A and M14 parts and mods. take a look at thier site when you can. If it wasnt for the riduculous gun laws going around here in NY id have an M1A by now.

If it wasn't for the high prices, I'd have one too! Much prefer the M14 over the AR-15. The AR just doesn't shoulder all that well for me and the 5.56mm round just doesn't cut the mustard. But, for now, my M1 Garand is as close to an M14 as I can get.

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Personally, as a former rifle range captain and arms instructor in the military, I'd have to say that stopping power is relative. We're after wounding, not stopping an elephant or blowing off body parts.

Having witnessed and participated in several firefights, the higher ROF of the 5.56 vs the 7.26 is obvious. Couple of points:

a) The higher rate of fire means better supression. I've witnessed it, I've seen it. With the Canadian C-7 and C-9 rifles, our platoon outgunned the opponent just on the supression alone even though we were outnumbered. (let's not even get into accuracy.)

b.) The 5.56 we just as effective in taking down opponents as the 7.62 round.

c) The M-16 (aka C-7) is a great weapon. Never jammed and always reliable. It's also light weight, and so is the ammo.

Having gone from the C-1 (7.62) to the C-7 rifle in the military, I was very happy with the 5.56 weapon.

c7ft.jpg

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To each his own and the 5.56mm likely is the better round in a CQB environment and for laying down suppression fire. The lighter recoil of the 5.56 certainly aids in maintaining good suppression. Unfortunately, I think the 5.56 pales when it comes to longer range capability and even accuracy. Yeah, the 5.56 can be accurate, but the 7.62 with it's heavier bullet just seems the better long range round for accuracy and retained energy. I don't think there is any one perfect round.

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Yup, there is no do all, end all.

I must admit that for all around conditions, I much preferred the AR-15 in 5.56 to a 7.62 or even the 30.06 Garand.

The fact that I could hit a gnat's ass from 5 feet to 100 yards with open sights probably lends a bit to my appeal...

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I'm with Canuck, just the Jack tho. Don't understand why anybody wants to go and mess up perfectly good Tennessee sippin whiskey.

As for the round and the weapon, Fork, I have to disagree with you on the M-16. During the first Desert Whoya, we scrubbed the blueing of those blasted weapons trying to keep them clean. That jammed, misfired, and were pretty iffy during operations. In a fire fight, and yes, I've been in a couple both in the military and in civilian law enforcement (got the scares to prove both), you need to trust that weapon. Fortunately, we had few problems during ops, but that is not to say the troops trusted the weapon.

As for marksmanship, having been an instructor both military and civilian law enforcement, I think you may see a slightly different finding when the Corps report is released. We shall see.

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I'm with Canuck, just the Jack tho. Don't understand why anybody wants to go and mess up perfectly good Tennessee sippin whiskey.

As for the round and the weapon, Fork, I have to disagree with you on the M-16. During the first Desert Whoya, we scrubbed the blueing of those blasted weapons trying to keep them clean. That jammed, misfired, and were pretty iffy during operations. In a fire fight, and yes, I've been in a couple both in the military and in civilian law enforcement (got the scares to prove both), you need to trust that weapon. Fortunately, we had few problems during ops, but that is not to say the troops trusted the weapon.

As for marksmanship, having been an instructor both military and civilian law enforcement, I think you may see a slightly different finding when the Corps report is released. We shall see.

Skipper: when the Vietname Marines during the Vietnam War got the M-16's the never ever had problems with keeping them from jamming. It's all about being religious with your cleaning. :)

The canucks also don't have any jamming issues either (and neither did I). It meant I had to spend a lot of time cleaning them too, but it was a relationship that gave back what you put into it - I just wish marriages worked that way... :D

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Way too technical for me! Never had any problems with rocks! Didn't have to clean 'em,and never a jam. Range was a little short and it wasn't easy to find good smooth ones but at five feet separation you can't beat'em! If you couldn't carry at least twenty,you were a pantywaist! Damn kids,no stamina!

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Accuracy......... M16 (C-7)

Reliability..........AK47

Its all in the way they are built. The AK is built to be treated like crap and still work in all conditions and fires 7.62

The M16 (C-7) is a precsion weapon 5.56

Its a toss up...................as long as i can trust my C7 then I'm happy with 5.56mm.............it will do the job.

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Accuracy......... M16 (C-7)

Reliability..........AK47

Its all in the way they are built. The AK is built to be treated like crap and still work in all conditions and fires 7.62

The M16 (C-7) is a precision weapon 5.56

Its a toss up...................as long as i can trust my C7 then I'm happy with 5.56mm.............it will do the job.

You make a good point Canuck. I've heard of some US forces using the AK-47 during the last Iraq operation using the AK because it was more robust than the M-16.

I guess this all goes back to the old adage during WWII of cannon vs mg in aircraft. The US's approach was to use the 50 cal as their weapon of choice, but a lot of them - up to 6-8 in an aircraft. While the Brits and Germans used a combination MG/Cannon approach - hispanos,20/30mm with .303/50 cal, 13.7mm.

The higher rate of fire of the 50 cal proved to be just as effective as the cannon rounds - not to mention that you had a lot more squeeze trigger time with the 50's than having say, 120-150 rounds fo 20mm. But it also meant the US only had one weapon to fix on all aircraft, while the other forces had several.

I think that by switching from the standard 5.56 to another 7.62, just complicates the whole arms management, especially from an ammo management perspective. Not every trade will switch over and it'll become hard to manage two sets of ammo and weapon parts.

If they go 7.62 - then everyone (Marines, all special forces, army, navy, air force) should change their small arms weapons too. It's what Canada did back in 1988. We dropped all small arms and MG's and swapped them out for the C7, C8, and the C9.

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We already do that anyway. We still have crew served weapon that uses 7.62, the M-60 MG. Which frankly, I'd rather we not give up.

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We still have the HK91 as standard issue rifle in our infantry. Great rifle. Reliable as the devil and 7.62 NATO got plenty of stopping power. Cars, doors, light walls, branches and twigs and small leaves will not stop it... :) IIRC I've fired 15k rounds with a HK91 with only barrel cleaning and some oil... it basically cleaned itself :)

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